The real purpose behind the CAC green sticker? My opinion/answer will help understand CAC better. — Welcome to the CAC Educational Forum

The real purpose behind the CAC green sticker? My opinion/answer will help understand CAC better.

The real purpose behind the CAC green sticker? The answer will help you understand CAC better and anticipate what CAC will or will not sticker.

My opinion and answer is that CAC and JA wanted to resurrect a true sight unseen tradeable TPG graded coin as they were originally intended to do back in 1986 and 1987.

In this way, buyers would be willing to pay solid prices for a no-question asked as to the solid quality within the grade encapsulated coin without having to inspect the coin first . This creates a market in which TPG slabbed coins would truly trade sight unseen. Not necessarily PQ but solidly within the grade. Such coin should be at least .4 of the assigned grade and up.

Feel free to argue with me. I will not be offended.
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Comments

  • edited January 2022
    The goal is to make a market in CAC coins for CAC and they are picky because they put their money where their mouth is. It isn’t really sight unseen since they have already blessed off on the coin in hand. If other dealers are content on doing sight unseen based off of CAC’s standards that just boosts CAC’s goal of making a market in cac coins no?

    the tangental effects of consumer protection and education are more effects of JAs approach than the business model imho.  
  • I disagree with both opinions. I believe a major motivation for the creation of CAC was dissatisfaction with the difference between NGC & PCGS
    grading ( averaging 2-3 points and often representing 10s of thousands of $)
    AND the constant upward “ gradeflation “ of resubmitted slabbed coins. Theoretically, as intended, once a coin was CAC’ed, that was end of story & no further upgrading was conceivable. Whether that has in fact happened is open to debate but it was a good concept.
  • edited January 2022
    mellado said:
    I disagree with both opinions. I believe a major motivation for the creation of CAC was dissatisfaction with the difference between NGC & PCGS grading ( averaging 2-3 points and often representing 10s of thousands of $) AND the constant upward “ gradeflation “ of resubmitted slabbed coins. Theoretically, as intended, once a coin was CAC’ed, that was end of story & no further upgrading was conceivable. Whether that has in fact happened is open to debate but it was a good concept.
    Motivation isn’t a mission statement or business plan. Also grading will never be “end of story” absolute. 
  • edited January 2022
    Crypto:

    How is your position statement different than what I posted?

    You think CAC remembers all of the coins they have stickered?
  • edited January 2022
    oreville said:
    Crypto: How is your position statement different than what I posted? You think CAC remembers all of the coins they have stickered?
    It was a simplified agreement but flipped to CAC perspective. CAC is a dealer first and the market they created is not the spiritual successor to PCGS original mission statement from 86 as PCGS was independent. CAC is not independent of the market. 

    And yes I do believe they do remember that is why they built a database. As to specific prices for specific coins, clearly not. But a 65 cac conn comm doesn’t need too much nuance
  • edited January 2022
    Crypto stated:
    “It was a simplified agreement but flipped to CAC perspective. CAC is a dealer first and the market they created is not the spiritual successor to PCGS original mission statement from 86 as PCGS was independent. CAC is not independent of the market. “

    I think JA figured out that he could have a win-win outcome in which the consumer can win and he wins also by helping the consumer level the playing field.

    But the spiritual approach remains intact without having to be independent.

    Another way of saying it is “what is good for the goose is good for the gander.”
  • oreville said:
    The real purpose behind the CAC green sticker? The answer will help you understand CAC better and anticipate what CAC will or will not sticker. My opinion and answer is that CAC and JA wanted to resurrect a true sight unseen tradeable TPG graded coin as they were originally intended to do back in 1986 and 1987. In this way, buyers would be willing to pay solid prices for a no-question asked as to the solid quality within the grade encapsulated coin without having to inspect the coin first . This creates a market in which TPG slabbed coins would truly trade sight unseen. Not necessarily PQ but solidly within the grade. Such coin should be at least .4 of the assigned grade and up. Feel free to argue with me. I will not be offended.
    But how can you account for the eye appeal factor? Many of the green sticker coins are solid for the grade but lacking visual eye appeal. JA stickers a fair amount of coins that have spots, verdigris, drab toning, spotting etc. He has an emphasis more on originality it seems except for a gold sticker, where amazing luster, toning, surfaces, color come more into play
  • Stevie stated:

    But how can you account for the eye appeal factor? Many of the green sticker coins are solid for the grade but lacking visual eye appeal. JA stickers a fair amount of coins that have spots, verdigris, drab toning, spotting etc. He has an emphasis more on originality it seems except for a gold sticker, where amazing luster, toning, surfaces, color come more into play.“

    Eye appeal is admittedly subjective and difficult to measure.

    Many coins that are solid for the grade when viewed in person are not photogenic in a photo shoot as superior luster can be difficult to capture in a still photo especially when toned.


  • I don’t think that widespread sight-unseen trading was even remotely close to the main goal of CAC.

    I believe JA felt that the combination of gradeflation and the prevalence of subpar coins in the marketplace was unfairly holding down the value of quality coins. And that collectors who tended to hold such coins, were being penalized the most.

    CAC and now, in turn, much of the industry, are more likely to give solid for the grade (or better) coins their due. As a result, hopefully, gradeflation has slowed down and coin doctoring has decreased. At the same time, CAC has a ready market of quality coins it’s seen and stickered, to facilitate trading.
  • Mark Feld:

    You stated:

    I believe JA felt that the combination of gradeflation and the prevalence of subpar coins in the marketplace was unfairly holding down the value of quality coins. And that collectors who tended to hold such coins, were being penalized the most.

    True...and that also killed sight unseen trading as assigned grades could no longer be fully trusted.
  • oreville said:
    Mark Feld: You stated: I believe JA felt that the combination of gradeflation and the prevalence of subpar coins in the marketplace was unfairly holding down the value of quality coins. And that collectors who tended to hold such coins, were being penalized the most. True...and that also killed sight unseen trading as assigned grades could no longer be fully trusted.
    Was there much sight unseen without personal relationships before CAC ? 

    It really all boils down to confidence of the seller from the buyer. As ever will be the case. Cac helps because too many dealer sold the slab and aren’t really that great at grading themselves 
  • Crypto said:


    oreville said:

    Mark Feld:

    You stated:

    I believe JA felt that the combination of gradeflation and the prevalence of subpar coins in the marketplace was unfairly holding down the value of quality coins. And that collectors who tended to hold such coins, were being penalized the most.

    True...and that also killed sight unseen trading as assigned grades could no longer be fully trusted.

    Was there much sight unseen without personal relationships before CAC ? 

    It really all boils down to confidence of the seller from the buyer. As ever will be the case. Cac helps because too many dealer sold the slab and aren’t really that great at grading themselves 


    There wasn't much sight-unseen trading, other than for generic types of coins. I'm not disputing the fact that CAC has increased sight-unseen bidding activity (though only in it's own universe of coins). I just don't think that was the primary goal of CAC.
  • MarkFeld said:
    oreville said:
    Mark Feld: You stated: I believe JA felt that the combination of gradeflation and the prevalence of subpar coins in the marketplace was unfairly holding down the value of quality coins. And that collectors who tended to hold such coins, were being penalized the most. True...and that also killed sight unseen trading as assigned grades could no longer be fully trusted.
    Was there much sight unseen without personal relationships before CAC ? 

    It really all boils down to confidence of the seller from the buyer. As ever will be the case. Cac helps because too many dealer sold the slab and aren’t really that great at grading themselves 
    There wasn't much sight-unseen trading, other than for generic types of coins. I'm not disputing the fact that CAC has increased sight-unseen bidding activity (though only in it's own universe of coins). I just don't think that was the primary goal of CAC.
    I agree with you it was an effect not a goal
  • This is the 2008 interview between Maurice Rosen and John Albanese in which two question were asked and two responses were given.

    So I was both incorrect and correct at the same time.


    MR:Given all this John, why did you start CAC?

    JA: I felt we were basically in a death spiral. I saw the “C” coins dragging down the prices of “A” and “B” coins. Throughout my career I’ve always tried to buy the “A” and “B” coins. I felt that someone just had to push back. I felt strongly that the “A” and “B” coins needed to trade on their own, to be decoupled from the “C” coins. I felt the best way to accomplish that was to start CAC. Earlier in the interview I was critical of The Greysheet for contributing to gradeflation. The Greysheet changed ownership in 1984. Since then I’m glad to say there’s been a decided improvement. They’ve been much more responsive, reporting the prices as they see them.

    My comment. GRADING



    MR:What do you hope to achieve with CAC?

    JA: We will ignore the less than “B” coins. We know it’s going to be hard but we’re barely in the first inning and have achieved some impressive success. Greysheet bids are strong since we started, but Bluesheet prices (sigh-unseen bids as opposed to the Greysheet’s sight-seen bids) have not been as strong. We’re already seeing a start to the decoupling we hoped to achieve. We expect volatility in prices; what we shouldn’t expect is volatility in grading. That’s our mission.

    My comment: SiGHT SEEN VS SIGHT UNSEEN TRADING .





  • In a nut shell, the sticka is like a Thumbs up, JA knows, CAC knows and now consumer knows that when a coin is green stickered its accurately graded and can be priced at the guides and when it is gold stickered its under graded by at least 2 points and should be priced accordingly higher at the guides.
  • Realone said:

    In a nut shell, the sticka is like a Thumbs up, JA knows, CAC knows and now consumer knows that when a coin is green stickered its accurately graded and can be priced at the guides and when it is gold stickered its under graded by at least 2 points and should be priced accordingly higher at the guides.

    Realone said:

    In a nut shell, the sticka is like a Thumbs up, JA knows, CAC knows and now consumer knows that when a coin is green stickered its accurately graded and can be priced at the guides and when it is gold stickered its under graded by at least 2 points and should be priced accordingly higher at the guides.

    A gold sticker does not indicate that the coin is undergraded by at least two points. It means that in the opinion of CAC, the coin is at least solid for the grade at the next grade up.
  • Hi Mark,
    where did you read that, if true I have learned something very important today. I could swear it meant under graded by 2 points, my bad if I was wrong.
    Thanks
  • Realone said:

    Hi Mark,
    where did you read that, if true I have learned something very important today. I could swear it meant under graded by 2 points, my bad if I was wrong.
    Thanks

    I’ve never heard or read other than what I posted. Many gold-stickered coins bring prices commensurate with a two point difference and some of those coins deserve such prices. But that’s not specifically what the gold sticker is meant to signify.
  • Realone,

    Mark Feld is correct.

    i spoke with JA years ago and he stated:
    Green sticker is considered solid for the grade which means it is equal to .4 of the assigned grade up to .3 of the next grade up.
    Gold sticker equals at least .4 of the next higher grade and beyond.

  • oreville said:

    Mark Feld:

    You stated:

    I believe JA felt that the combination of gradeflation and the prevalence of subpar coins in the marketplace was unfairly holding down the value of quality coins. And that collectors who tended to hold such coins, were being penalized the most.

    True...and that also killed sight unseen trading as assigned grades could no longer be fully trusted.

    Before the Bluesheet and CAC were founded, sight-unseen trading was already moribund. The gradeflation had already made its mark.
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