1794 Amon Carter-Milas/ Browder silver plug dollar

mellado

I’ve been reliably informed this ex Cardinal dollar just sold privately for in excess of $12M.
It was once offered me by Milas for $375K, later sold to AL. I wonder if this new buyer is the reported “ bitcoin billionaire” who bought the 1804 $, 94-S dime, Paquet Liberty $20
and the two premier 1792 ex-Partrick patterns, Birch cent & “ Wright quarter” in copper?

TheCoinHound

Ian has said that it didn't go to the owner of the 33 $20, so there are at least a couple of players in his camp. No idea about the source of their wealth, or anything beyond that.

As for bitcoin, I still think it's way crazier than tulips ever got. But there's still a mortgage on my house, so WTF do I know?

MarkFeld

mellado said:

I’ve been reliably informed this ex Cardinal dollar just sold privately for in excess of $12M.
It was once offered me by Milas for $375K, later sold to AL. I wonder if this new buyer is the reported “ bitcoin billionaire” who bought the 1804 $, 94-S dime, Paquet Liberty $20
and the two premier 1792 ex-Partrick patterns, Birch cent & “ Wright quarter” in copper?

Are you saying that Marvin Browder once owned the coin? I don’t remember having seen his name included in its provenance.

mellado

Ed Milas & Marvin Browder , nice guy & a private Texas collector w oil wealth were partners in the 1794 which Ed offered me at $375K at an ANA, a coin Marv didn’t want to sell but acceded to Ed. I declined and it sold at that to Andy later on in that show. Andy can verify the joint ownership bet Ed & Marv.

MarkFeld

mellado said:

Ed Milas & Marvin Browder , nice guy & a private Texas collector w oil wealth were partners in the 1794 which Ed offered me at $375K at an ANA, a coin Marv didn’t want to sell but acceded to Ed. I declined and it sold at that to Andy later on in that show. Andy can verify the joint ownership bet Ed & Marv.

Thank you. I met Mr. Browder and his family in the early 80’s. He was one of the friendliest, most down to earth people I’ve ever met.

TheCoinHound

mellado said:

Ed Milas & Marvin Browder , nice guy & a private Texas collector w oil wealth were partners in the 1794 which Ed offered me at $375K at an ANA, a coin Marv didn’t want to sell but acceded to Ed. I declined and it sold at that to Andy later on in that show. Andy can verify the joint ownership bet Ed & Marv.

They either owned it in partnership, or it was entirely Browder's with Milas having some sort of marketing rights and/or profit-sharing arrangement. Whatever the arrangement, I know that Browder did not want to sell, Milas did, and I got to buy it. I've also been told that when my collection went to auction in 1991, Browder tried to reacquire the piece, but he was outbid by Jay Parrino.

When I look back on the deal, I always marvel at how different the market was back then. This was August of 1988. IIRC, gold was in the 300's, 65 Saints were close to 4K, a 65 $20 Lib was 10K, commems were maybe 10X what they are today, and classic rarities were dirt cheap. It wasn't that people didn't appreciate the rarities, and it certainly wasn't because money was tight. It was simply that people weren't used to the idea of individual coins being worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. For just one more crazy illustration of how different things were back then, you could have traded 11 MS65 Saints for one PR64 Stella. Think about that.

mellado

Fascinating followup comment. How things have changed , both for the good & the bad. I wonder if the multi-million $
numismatic trend started with the Cardinal “ purchase” ( quotes intentional) of the Carter 1794 $ for approx $7.4M? Can anyone pinpoint the transaction which started this million $ trend? And the old $15M offer on Judd 1776 doesn’t count.

WilliamJ

Amazing how much coin prices have increased since the 1980's!
  Who knows what the future may hold...

TheCoinHound

WilliamJ said:

Amazing how much coin prices have increased since the 1980's!
  Who knows what the future may hold...

It's also amazing how much many other coins have fallen!

TheCoinHound

mellado said:

Fascinating followup comment. How things have changed , both for the good & the bad. I wonder if the multi-million $
numismatic trend started with the Cardinal “ purchase” ( quotes intentional) of the Carter 1794 $ for approx $7.4M? Can anyone pinpoint the transaction which started this million $ trend? And the old $15M offer on Judd 1776 doesn’t count.

I believe the first seven figure coin was the Garrett PR65 1852/1 Humbert $20, sold privately in 1989 for $1.3 million.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/territorial-gold/1852-1-20-humbert-twenty-dollar-pr65-pcgs-the-1851-opening-of-the-us-assay-office-was-a-boon-to-the-san-francisco-gold/a/422-3888.s

mellado

And that was way before it became known that JJFord Jr made and sold / traded so many “ proof” pioneer gold
“ rarities”. If those revelations had been known in 1989, that Humbert $20 would never have sold even near that price. Other than it originated out of the Garrett/ JHU collection, its legitimacy might well have been called into question.

Realone

The 1794 silver plug is on my want list. Will I get to buy it someday, who knows. But what I do know is the use of the silver plug is fascinating to me and something that I cannot take my eyes off of. The U.S. mint way back then was so intellectually ahead of its time and it's freedom to experiment and be the Macgiver of mints is so interesting.

WilliamJ

1795 silver plug flowing hair dollars are also very fascinating! I love the one that I have and hope to have another in the future....

TheCoinHound

mellado said:

And that was way before it became known that JJFord Jr made and sold / traded so many “ proof” pioneer gold
“ rarities”. If those revelations had been known in 1989, that Humbert $20 would never have sold even near that price. Other than it originated out of the Garrett/ JHU collection, its legitimacy might well have been called into question.

Bullshit. First, the only fake proof of a pioneer gold piece is the 1853 Assay $20. All of the others are only PL, and almost all of them are fantasy pieces, i.e., they don't exist as real coins. Second, the proof Assay $20 was discredited long, long before 1989. (Eric Newman gets credit for that.) And third, the fabric of the proof Humbert is nowhere near as suspicious as the JJF Assay $20's. Have you ever looked at or felt the edge of the fake Assay $20's? I'll tell a little story. About 30 years ago, Don Kagin had a proof 1853 Assay $20 and was looking for opinions on its authenticity. (I don't remember the exact circumstances, so don't read too much into that.) At first, Don and Art Kagin took the somewhat stubborn position that it looked like it could be real. As I recall, Bob Rhue, Stu Levine and I dismissed it instantly. (I wasn't ready to write a book about it like Eric Newman had, but the coin had the obvious look and feel of a coin that had been made in the 20th century.) Anyway, like I said, the Kagins were not convinced. Then, I asked Art to look at the edge of the coin. He did, said "That's not right!", and instantly changed his opinion about the coin. (Pretty impressive for an old-timer!) Don followed suit but IIRC, a little more stubbornly.

One more thing. The provenance of the proof Humbert $20 doesn't just go back to Garrett. It goes back to Humbert!

MarkFeld

TheCoinHound said:

mellado said:

And that was way before it became known that JJFord Jr made and sold / traded so many “ proof” pioneer gold
“ rarities”. If those revelations had been known in 1989, that Humbert $20 would never have sold even near that price. Other than it originated out of the Garrett/ JHU collection, its legitimacy might well have been called into question.

Bullshit. First, the only fake proof of a pioneer gold piece is the 1853 Assay $20. All of the others are only PL, and almost all of them are fantasy pieces, i.e., they don't exist as real coins. Second, the proof Assay $20 was discredited long, long before 1989. (Eric Newman gets credit for that.) And third, the fabric of the proof Humbert is nowhere near as suspicious as the JJF Assay $20's. Have you ever looked at or felt the edge of the fake Assay $20's? I'll tell a little story. About 30 years ago, Don Kagin had a proof 1853 Assay $20 and was looking for opinions on its authenticity. (I don't remember the exact circumstances, so don't read too much into that.) At first, Don and Art Kagin took the somewhat stubborn position that it looked like it could be real. As I recall, Bob Rhue, Stu Levine and I dismissed it instantly. (I wasn't ready to write a book about it like Eric Newman had, but the coin had the obvious look and feel of a coin that had been made in the 20th century.) Anyway, like I said, the Kagins were not convinced. Then, I asked Art to look at the edge of the coin. He did, said "That's not right!", and instantly changed his opinion about the coin. (Pretty impressive for an old-timer!) Don followed suit but IIRC, a little more stubbornly.

One more thing. The provenance of the proof Humbert $20 doesn't just go back to Garrett. It goes back to Humbert!

Andy, do you really think it's of any consequence that the provenance of Garrett PR65 1852/1 Humbert $20 goes back to "Humbert"?

Realone

WilliamJ said:

1795 silver plug flowing hair dollars are also very fascinating! I love the one that I have and hope to have another in the future....

Agreed, the 1795's are also fascinating, but the 1794 that's the first and foremost example.

ptolemyII

MarkFeld said:

TheCoinHound said:

mellado said:

And that was way before it became known that JJFord Jr made and sold / traded so many “ proof” pioneer gold
“ rarities”. If those revelations had been known in 1989, that Humbert $20 would never have sold even near that price. Other than it originated out of the Garrett/ JHU collection, its legitimacy might well have been called into question.

Bullshit. First, the only fake proof of a pioneer gold piece is the 1853 Assay $20. All of the others are only PL, and almost all of them are fantasy pieces, i.e., they don't exist as real coins. Second, the proof Assay $20 was discredited long, long before 1989. (Eric Newman gets credit for that.) And third, the fabric of the proof Humbert is nowhere near as suspicious as the JJF Assay $20's. Have you ever looked at or felt the edge of the fake Assay $20's? I'll tell a little story. About 30 years ago, Don Kagin had a proof 1853 Assay $20 and was looking for opinions on its authenticity. (I don't remember the exact circumstances, so don't read too much into that.) At first, Don and Art Kagin took the somewhat stubborn position that it looked like it could be real. As I recall, Bob Rhue, Stu Levine and I dismissed it instantly. (I wasn't ready to write a book about it like Eric Newman had, but the coin had the obvious look and feel of a coin that had been made in the 20th century.) Anyway, like I said, the Kagins were not convinced. Then, I asked Art to look at the edge of the coin. He did, said "That's not right!", and instantly changed his opinion about the coin. (Pretty impressive for an old-timer!) Don followed suit but IIRC, a little more stubbornly.

One more thing. The provenance of the proof Humbert $20 doesn't just go back to Garrett. It goes back to Humbert!

Andy, do you really think it's of any consequence that the provenance of Garrett PR65 1852/1 Humbert $20 goes back to "Humbert"?

Humbert is not simply its provenance, but it's a fountainhead source, fully a pedigree. I have never before heard of its authenticity questioned.

The Zabriskie family were notorious pranksters; I wouldn't be surprised if they made that story up to improve opinions of their own holdings.

Realone

The Garrett pedigree or provenance is good enough for me.
As to "the Zabriskie family were notorious pranksters " I have no idea so I will defer to you and your knowledge with that one, but heck I can name so many respected and otherwise pranksters in our hobby to make anyone's head spin. Judge the coin and not its provenance etc.

WilliamJ

 

TheCoinHound

Really cool priced and named copy of PtolemyII's buddies' Humbert auction, from the JJF Library.

https://archive.org/details/weekshumbertcoll1902chap/page/8/mode/2up

ptolemyII

I think that's the exact sale in which the Zabriskies colluded with Ken Kesey in a pitched battle with Colonel Green and the Corleones