Market acceptable grading? No Thanks!

SeatedNut

The market is flooded with coins that have been straight graded but shouldn’t be. This is a problem on many levels. #1 Many buyers of these coins believe they own problem free examples. #2 When these coins sell at auction they typically drag down the price guides leading to unreliable guide pricing for original pieces. #3 Since there is so much crap being called market acceptable, the market actually accepts it. Is there anyone on this forum that believes this type of grading is good for the hobby? Anyone think this is helpful? Anyone think we need more of it? Below are a few examples of recent examples on the market.

CAC has helped dramatically in bringing awareness to original surfaces. I just don’t understand how anyone could think CAC is bad for the hobby and what the big two are doing is not. Would love to hear your thoughts. Will it ever end? Do we need a new grading service?




Shockingly all are straight graded!

BillJones

As a collector, that all depends are how rare the item is, how hard it is to find one, how badly you want one, what the assigned grade is and the price.

There are slabbed coins that make me shake my head and question "Why?' When experienced graders look at coins that seem to have been sold at a "bargain level," they look at the photos or the coin in person understand why. Every genuine coin has a value. Unless you are tossing them into the melt pile, you have to take these things into consideration.

All of the coins you cited have been dipped. Dipping a circulated silver coin makes every mark look worse, which why it is almost always a mistake to do it. I don't cleaning patterns on any of these coins. They are not "your thing" but they rate a grade of some sort.

ptolemyII

There are burnt-out coins of various colors and textures that are market-acceptable at BlueSheet levels.
There are "C" eye-appeal coins that are market-acceptable at a putative 25%-30% back of CDN Bid.
There are "B" eye-appeal coins that are market-acceptable at 90%-110% of CDN bid.
And "A" coins that are market-acceptable to luster freaks and and yet acceptable to no one else.

@JACAC has stated many times that over-grading is a problem "orders of magnitude" greater than artificial toning. That's 100X

The coins the OP posted certainly make his/her point ! They are one step above "damage-queen" status. But the market is not binary; nuance noted above .

coastaljerseyguy

Grade them what they are. Net grading a details coin with a clean grade is a slippery slope and a dishonest practice IMHO. I understand some series would have little to no coins with a clean grade. So let the pricing guides price accordingly and have a unique scale for them. But net grading Morgans or Peace dollars, what I've seen on EBAY for the key dates, that is a travesty.

SeatedNut

@BillJones - In my eyes it shouldn’t matter how rare the coin. Either the coin is original or at least has no obvious signs of being messed with or it’s not. These coins are all dipped but that’s putting it mildly. Yes it’s true every coin has its price but a blast white VF and XF silver dollar from 150 years ago should not be straight graded or even net graded. It should be in a detailed holder. Maybe I’m in the minority on this but I just don’t see how this is good for the hobby.

@ptolemyII - I am well aware of the A,B and C quality levels. My position is that these coins are none of the above. And shouldn’t be slabbed as straight graded. They are not over graded or under graded. They are just bad coins that should be body bagged!

@coastaljerseyguy - I’m ok with series not having lots of straight graded pieces if that’s what it pans out to be. I don’t see the positive in letting all this crap get into straight graded holders.

BustDMs

To me those are NOT market acceptable. I equate the term to LIGHTLY cleaned coins that have naturally retoned.

Just my opinion. Not meant to determine any one else’s.

Catbert

No, we don't need another grading service.

There's a collector for every coin. While you and I don't collect at this level, someone will. Some of the big marks aren't surprising on a big coin. The dipping issue is rampant across all silver series. Agree the 1862 is a details coin and the 1871 looks badly cleaned and also a details coin. The TPGs could tighten up, but I'd like a broader sample to say that it's an across the board problem as you assert. Is net grading what you're opposed to?

SeatedNut

@Catbert - It would be very easy for me to go into the archives and get pics of coins that are dogs. But no matter how many I post it would not give you a full sense of what a Seated Dollar collector is up against. It would be worth an hour of time to go check out the archives. Pick any date and filter out the proofs. And filter out the CAC coins (there are not that many anyways). To make it fair don’t pick the ultra rarities as I realize graders show them a bit more love. Take a middle of the road coin and see how many coins have issues compared original pieces. Again, who does this help?

There is a market/buyer for these problem coins and that’s how they should be sold!

SeatedNut

@Catbert - Archives are bad… but Ebay is even worse!

WilliamJ

WilliamJ

Blast white vf 20 bust dollar? 
 Definitely cleaned!

TheCoinHound

I think it's fair to say that PCGS and NGC try to straight grade as many coins as possible, and that they try to assign the most appropriate grades, all things considered. What they don't do is tell us which coins we should pick for our collections, and what we should pay for them. Not a crazy way to do things, but it does open the door for CAC and other dealers who promise to deliver better coins at higher prices.

MarkFeld

WilliamJ said:

Blast white vf 20 bust dollar? 
 Definitely cleaned!

Cleaned or not, that coin doesn’t look anywhere close to “blast white”.

TurtleCat

TheCoinHound said:

I think it's fair to say that PCGS and NGC try to straight grade as many coins as possible, and that they try to assign the most appropriate grades, all things considered. What they don't do is tell us which coins we should pick for our collections, and what we should pay for them. Not a crazy way to do things, but it does open the door for CAC and other dealers who promise to deliver better coins at higher prices.

To be fair, by setting a particular grade the graders at the TPGs have established an expectation of pricing. It's squishy for sure but you could almost call the grade an opening bid of pricing.

TheCoinHound

TurtleCat said:

I think it's fair to say that PCGS and NGC try to straight grade as many coins as possible, and that they try to assign the most appropriate grades, all things considered. What they don't do is tell us which coins we should pick for our collections, and what we should pay for them. Not a crazy way to do things, but it does open the door for CAC and other dealers who promise to deliver better coins at higher prices.

To be fair, by setting a particular grade the graders at the TPGs have established an expectation of pricing. It's squishy for sure but you could almost call the grade an opening bid of pricing.

I don’t think that’s the way graders think, but it’s certainly how the market works right now. 

CACfan

PCGS and NGC have set the standards for "problem free" encapsulation. Feel free to be picky but even CAC has knowingly approved untold thousands of coins that have been blatantly conserved.

A coin is not worthless just because it has been expertly conserved. As a retailer, I would much rather list a gorgeous but faintly cleaned coin in a "problem free" slab than a dark, dull boring specimen in an identical slab with a CAC bean.

A way around this controversy would be to have separate sheet values for original coins and conserved coins. It is actually being done now with Bluesheet versus Greysheet but most retail buyers do not know it.

MarkFeld

CACfan said:

PCGS and NGC have set the standards for "problem free" encapsulation. Feel free to be picky but even CAC has knowingly approved untold thousands of coins that have been blatantly conserved.

A coin is not worthless just because it has been expertly conserved. As a retailer, I would much rather list a gorgeous but faintly cleaned coin in a "problem free" slab than a dark, dull boring specimen in an identical slab with a CAC bean.

A way around this controversy would be to have separate sheet values for original coins and conserved coins. It is actually being done now with Bluesheet versus Greysheet but most retail buyers do not know it.

Bluesheet and Greysheet values aren't for conserved vs. non-conserved coins. There are countless non-conserved coins that merit Bluesheet prices and countless conserved ones that merit Greysheet prices.

CACfan

YOU SAID: "Bluesheet and Greysheet values aren't for conserved vs. non-conserved coins. There are countless non-conserved coins that merit Bluesheet prices and countless conserved ones that merit Greysheet prices."

I fully realize that fact. But at least Bluesheet is more in the ballpark for establishing the values of overly conserved coins -- versus the Greysheet values for nicer (and less likely to be overly conserved) coins.

I seriously hope that this site does not become a forum to bash the grading services.

coastaljerseyguy

I don't know about CAC approving thousands of blatantly conserved coins, emphasis on 'blatant'. IMHO there is acceptable conservation to remove gunk/PVC (acetone) and even unattractive toning on AU+ coins that doesn't effect their luster by removing surface metals (i.e. a gentle dip of 50% solution for 2 seconds followed by a distilled water rinse). Removing the toning can also help the coin keep from progressing. This is true conservation and I have no problem with either of these practices.
Then there is horrendous cleaning like the examples above in clean grades. I prefer a clean graded, dirty VF coin then a net graded VF that is really an over-dipped/white XF coin that belongs in a details slab. When buying over the internet, sellers can enhance photos and I rely on the TPGs to allow me to make an informed good buying decision. That has not always happened. And it not just over dipping that is a problem, although the largest offender, its the graffiti, scratches, rim bumps, corrosion, etc. that shouldn't have been overlooked. This is where grading consistency is needed, don't care it is rare.

CACfan

coastaljerseyguy said:

I don't know about CAC approving thousands of blatantly conserved coins, emphasis on 'blatant'. IMHO there is acceptable conservation to remove gunk/PVC (acetone) and even unattractive toning on AU+ coins that doesn't effect their luster by removing surface metals (i.e. a gentle dip of 50% solution for 2 seconds followed by a distilled water rinse). Removing the toning can also help the coin keep from progressing. This is true conservation and I have no problem with either of these practices.
Then there is horrendous cleaning like the examples above in clean grades. I prefer a clean graded, dirty VF coin then a net graded VF that is really an over-dipped/white XF coin that belongs in a details slab. When buying over the internet, sellers can enhance photos and I rely on the TPGs to allow me to make an informed good buying decision. That has not always happened. And it not just over dipping that is a problem, although the largest offender, its the graffiti, scratches, rim bumps, corrosion, etc. that shouldn't have been overlooked. This is where grading consistency is needed, don't care it is rare.

You may prefer dull, ugly, original coins but most of our retail customers are partial to beautiful if conserved specimens. Not everyone is a hardcore, old school numismatist.

PCGS and NGC, not anonymous comment posters, have set the standards for "problem free" encapsulation. Coins are not worthless just because they are not 100% original.

MarkFeld

CACfan said:

YOU SAID: "Bluesheet and Greysheet values aren't for conserved vs. non-conserved coins. There are countless non-conserved coins that merit Bluesheet prices and countless conserved ones that merit Greysheet prices."

I fully realize that fact. But at least Bluesheet is more in the ballpark for establishing the values of overly conserved coins -- versus the Greysheet values for nicer (and less likely to be overly conserved) coins.

I seriously hope that this site does not become a forum to bash the grading services.

You might realize that fact, but you stated otherwise. Your subsequent post was far more accurate.