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Biggest news of the week?

Apparently these are the very last double eagles from the S.S. Central America, and what incredible specimens they are. Prepare to be shocked: https://www.ngccoin.com/
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Comments

  • Beautiful coins- it will be interesting to watch as they filter into the market and get crossed to PCGS and get sent to CAC. I’ve always wanted a shipwreck 57-S $20 but always been hesitant to pull the trigger because it’s a big ocean and as recovery technology improves what if they pull up another 1000 mint state 57-S’s next time and the price plummets like after the Morgan $ release from the Treasury.
  • Grossly overpriced gimmick. Grossly doctored coins. They made somebody rich. PCGS heavily promoted them, even stooping to recognizing incredibly minor micro-varieties.
  • CACfan said:
    Grossly overpriced gimmick. Grossly doctored coins. They made somebody rich. PCGS heavily promoted them, even stooping to recognizing incredibly minor micro-varieties.
    That may be true but it’s the greatest treasure discovery story of our times- right down to the post script where Tommy Thompson “allegedly” ran off with much of the gold and was found living in a Boca Raton Hilton under an assumed name and paying with cash. Buying a shipwreck coin is as much about buying a tangible part of the story as it is about the coin, doctored or overpriced or not.
     
  • edited February 2022
    CACfan said:

    Grossly overpriced gimmick. Grossly doctored coins. They made somebody rich. PCGS heavily promoted them, even stooping to recognizing incredibly minor micro-varieties.


    My gut says that market levels on 57-S $20's seem about right. If I had to make the case, I'd use High Reliefs as a comp. In terms of coolness, history and absolute rarity, they're roughly equivalent. And without actually running the numbers, it looks like prices for the median grade of each issue is about the same. (A High Relief in 61 is worth something like a 57-S in 65.) As for the price curve for other grades, it seems more or less as one should expect, given the price for the median grade and the pops at each grade level.

    As for your other comments:

    If you think these coins are "grossly doctored", you either haven't seen the coins or you don't understand what doctoring is all about, and why it's a problem. Perhaps a good subject for another thread.

    Yes, a lot of money was made on these coins. So what?

    Yes, PCGS and NGC helped promote the coins. Why shouldn't they? It's good for the hobby, good for the submitters, and good for their own bottom line.

    And for the record, I don't have any of these coins, and I'm in absolutely no rush to get one. I figure I'll always be able to get one later, so better to put the money to use elsewhere.








  • If the rumored anti-doctoring grading service is established, none of these blatantly cleaned coins will make it into their slabs. And shame on CAC for approving them.

    Their history is a different matter. Lots of coins have interesting histories but nobody writes a book about them because millions of dollars in profit are not involved.

  • CACfan said:

    If the rumored anti-doctoring grading service is established, none of these blatantly cleaned coins will make it into their slabs. And shame on CAC for approving them.

    Their history is a different matter. Lots of coins have interesting histories but nobody writes a book about them because millions of dollars in profit are not involved.

    Are you new to the hobby, or just a troll?
  • I understand exactly what "doctoring" is. Regardless of how you illogically rationalize it, these shipwreck coins have been harshly cleaned and thus should not make it into "problem free" slabs much less be CAC'd. But yes, they definitely needed to be conserved.

    HR's are an invalid comparison. Many have not been doctored and those that have that are in "problem free" slabs have not been nearly as stripped. They have been popular since the day of their issue and do not have the benefit of recent heavy marketing. They are also infinitely prettier.

    Our firm has retailed dozens of HR's yet not a single shipwreck coin, maybe because we do not want to stick our trusting customers with marketing fabrications.
  • I witnessed the so-called doctoring in the early 2000’s and the recipe hasn’t changed. Distilled water and a few teaspoons of rust inhibitor from the local hardware store and soaking them overnight. Zero brushing and no movement of metal of any kind , zero acid. And after a few decades in the holder, they are stable . 
  • If a person desires the coin, and has the money to pay the price, notwithstanding other obligations, that is their choice. If buying strictly as an investment as the primary reason, that is also their choice. I would consult with very knowledgeable individuals (male and/or female) for their opinion(s), and the opinion of the quality of the piece, and the "Market value" of the piece. I would not be persuaded due to the background story. The coin is the coin.
  • john said:

    If a person desires the coin, and has the money to pay the price, notwithstanding other obligations, that is their choice. If buying strictly as an investment as the primary reason, that is also their choice. I would consult with very knowledgeable individuals (male and/or female) for their opinion(s), and the opinion of the quality of the piece, and the "Market value" of the piece. I would not be persuaded due to the background story. The coin is the coin.

    What you call the "background story" is, at least in the case of the SSCA coins, what I call "history". And if the history of a coin makes it more interesting to some collectors, then it absolutely adds real and justifiable value. Even if other collectors couldn't care less about the history of the coins.


  • JACAC said:

    I witnessed the so-called doctoring in the early 2000’s and the recipe hasn’t changed. Distilled water and a few teaspoons of rust inhibitor from the local hardware store and soaking them overnight. Zero brushing and no movement of metal of any kind , zero acid. And after a few decades in the holder, they are stable . 

    "After a few decades"? :o

    I do remember how some of the first groups of 57-S's turned in their holders, and it didn't take anywhere near that long. Also, although you say that "the recipe hasn't changed", and I believe you, I wonder if anything else is now being done to stabilize the coins after the initial steps of conservation. I'd be surprised if they never figured out what was going wrong, and what needed to be done to stabilize the coins.
  • If a person desires the coin, and has the money to pay the price, notwithstanding other obligations, that is their choice. If buying strictly as an investment as the primary reason, that is also their choice. I would consult with very knowledgeable individuals (male and/or female) for their opinion(s), and the opinion of the quality of the piece, and the "Market value" of the piece. I would not be persuaded due to the background story. The coin is the coin.
    What you call the "background story" is, at least in the case of the SSCA coins, what I call "history". And if the history of a coin makes it more interesting to some collectors, then it absolutely adds real and justifiable value. Even if other collectors couldn't care less about the history of the coins.
    Agreed- if it weren’t for the history of the SSCA, I would have no interest in owning a 57-S. 
  • john said:

    If a person desires the coin, and has the money to pay the price, notwithstanding other obligations, that is their choice. If buying strictly as an investment as the primary reason, that is also their choice. I would consult with very knowledgeable individuals (male and/or female) for their opinion(s), and the opinion of the quality of the piece, and the "Market value" of the piece. I would not be persuaded due to the background story. The coin is the coin.

    What you call the "background story" is, at least in the case of the SSCA coins, what I call "history". And if the history of a coin makes it more interesting to some collectors, then it absolutely adds real and justifiable value. Even if other collectors couldn't care less about the history of the coins.


    No argument, but I think you skipped over the thrust of my point.
  • Some of the coins exhibited heavy rust , probably 5% of the overall total. The rust was removed but still exhibited staining   Thousands didn’t need anything done to them as they looked as though they were just minted.  I’ve recruited Bob Evens to join us here   I hope he pops up today. Ja 


  • john said:

    If a person desires the coin, and has the money to pay the price, notwithstanding other obligations, that is their choice. If buying strictly as an investment as the primary reason, that is also their choice. I would consult with very knowledgeable individuals (male and/or female) for their opinion(s), and the opinion of the quality of the piece, and the "Market value" of the piece. I would not be persuaded due to the background story. The coin is the coin.

    What you call the "background story" is, at least in the case of the SSCA coins, what I call "history". And if the history of a coin makes it more interesting to some collectors, then it absolutely adds real and justifiable value. Even if other collectors couldn't care less about the history of the coins.



    Agreed- if it weren’t for the history of the SSCA, I would have no interest in owning a 57-S. 

    I have an interest in the history, but the history is not going to persuade me to purchase without the assistance of knowledgeable individuals advising me with determining the condition/quality/price/investment potential (if the is the primary reason for purchase).That is the point. Books are nice but whether a person disappeared with gold is not relevant, to me.

    My opinion is the greatest treasure discovery of our times is debatable, although I understand your reasons.
  • Currently two beautiful examples,  from the shipwreck, are at GC for auction. Both coins with a CAC sticker of approval. One PCGS ms 67+ and one Ngc ms 66+PL
       I would love to own either coin!

  • CACfan said:

    Grossly overpriced gimmick. Grossly doctored coins. They made somebody rich. PCGS heavily promoted them, even stooping to recognizing incredibly minor micro-varieties.

    That may be true but it’s the greatest treasure discovery story of our times- right down to the post script where Tommy Thompson “allegedly” ran off with much of the gold and was found living in a Boca Raton Hilton under an assumed name and paying with cash. Buying a shipwreck coin is as much about buying a tangible part of the story as it is about the coin, doctored or overpriced or not.
     

    An epic book. Right up there with Into Thin Air.
  • I sold 3 MS67's (all CAC). Some people really think the history is neat. Frankly I am sucker for them too.
  • There seems to be considerable confusion and mischaracterization on the part of some folks about the nature of the SSCA coins and the techniques used to reveal them for what they really are. I am the chief scientist of the project and the curator of the treasure, and so this was/is my work. My intention, as a scientist, has always been to reveal the coins for what they truly are, remarkable and beautiful pieces of history. The curating and study of the results are the final steps in the discovery process, using forensic science to uncover their true nature. "Doctoring," is antithetical to my philosophy and my practice. Iron oxides and other compounds (rust) and calcium carbonate (limestone) are the principal minerals that have encrusted and obscured these coins in the geological environment in which they sat since 1857 and before being recovered. As an academically trained geologist, I can tell you that iron is the fourth commonest element in the earth's crust, and calcium carbonate is not rare either, by any measure. We know a lot about the chemistry of these compounds. And one thing we know is that they do not combine with gold. So, these obscuring deposits are ON the surface of the coins, not a part of the surface of the coins. One needs to use a technique to loosen the physical bond (not chemical) between the coins and the minerals. Long ago, 1988, in the geological literature, I found a process that could be used as part of soils analytical work, and also could be applied to remove iron staining from acid-soluble mineral specimens. I experimented with it, first using it on a lump of coal from the shipwreck, with similar deposits firmly adhering to the surface, but not chemically bonded. It worked. I observed the results, tweaked the techniques a little for my particular circumstances, and saw an amazing show as thousands of mint-state double eagles and other fabulous pieces came to light in my laboratory after a century and a half lost at the bottom of the Atlantic. I have always kept the exact formula closely held, since I did the library research and the experimental trials. But I have always been otherwise open about the nature of it. Front Page, Coin World, July 3, 2000, an article titled "Better Coins Through Science," walks you through the steps. The coins are revealed exactly for what they are. No acids (the bath solution pH is 7.2 you can handle it with bare fingers, though I'm usually gloved to prevent dish-pan hands,) no scrubbing, no harsh cleaning, no "doctoring." Just using the "magic" (actually the logic) of science to remove obscuring mineral deposits. I must say it is extremely aesthetically pleasing (and thus personally rewarding) to take something that looks like a chunk of rust, curate it, and transform it into a wonderful, beautiful gold coin.
  • WilliamJ said:

    Currently two beautiful examples,  from the shipwreck, are at GC for auction. Both coins with a CAC sticker of approval. One PCGS ms 67+ and one Ngc ms 66+PL
       I would love to own either coin!

    ...have never seen so many SSCA consigned at one time, and that's just at GC. Timing is interesting. While the new coins will generate a great deal of enthusiasm, one wonders what current holders will think about market dilution -- especially those who paid big money for top pop 7's.

    In case you missed it, this NGC video illustrates the removal of mineralization:

    More than anything, I recommend Ship of Gold. It's not just about the shipwreck... it includes rich history of the Gold Rush, the Panic of 1857, the drawn out legal battles over the gold.....and Bob Evans playing the piano. Now that was a party.

    4 bucks on eBay.
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