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Has anyone else noticed that PCGS Price Guide prices have moved ahead of CAC prices recently

I had grown accustomed to looking at the PCGS value of a particular coin and the CAC value. The CAC price guide value was almost always higher, however, as of late, the PCGS prices have been higher. Is this just a lag in CAC updating it's guide, or something else. Opinions please.
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Comments

  • These are truly some very exciting times that we are living through!
  • JohnTCoin said:

    I had grown accustomed to looking at the PCGS value of a particular coin and the CAC value. The CAC price guide value was almost always higher, however, as of late, the PCGS prices have been higher. Is this just a lag in CAC updating it's guide, or something else. Opinions please.

    It could be a lag in CAC pricing and/or it could be unrealistically high price guide values.
  • Is this referring to PCGS value stated in Greysheet (or Bluesheet) vs. the CAC value stated in Greysheet, or is it referring to PCGS Price Guide? I ask, because I don't have the same impression, in general, although I did notice one anomaly after reviewing multiple listings in the Feb. Greysheet/Bluesheet; the 15S Buffalo Nickel, but I understand that example.
  • Just PCGS Price Guide vs CAC's price guide. I think that the PCGS Price Guide has just been updated more recently than CAC. I'm sure they will readjust soon. Lots of prices in the PCGS Price Guide have moved up lately. I've participated in auctions where maybe I was bidding on a coin that was 3 weeks away from the sell date, and by the time the sale date came, values had changed upward. @WilliamJ is right, exciting times. :)
  • Every coin I have bid on in the last (at least) four months have exceeded both the PCGS guide and the CAC guide. I don't think there is an exception.
  • PCGS now has a staff of 3 people designated to making their price guide up to date. The major problem of ANY price guide: tracking down legit transactions. Unless it's an auction sale, they can't easily track private sales.
  • Although I'm not one to base decisions on Price Guide values, for those that do, it just got a lot more complicated with all of the increases.

    - Ian
  • Pricing updates seem to be coming on a regular basis in the current market. As Legend said, they can only report on the auction prices that are being published and it's a vital part of collecting for these to be transparent. Unfortunately there are far more private transactions that neither group would be privy to, but the market is certainly moving right now and it's hard for even those of us who are buying and selling on a daily basis to keep up with!
  • I probably should create a new post for a few additional questions that I have, but I hope that you all can help me here. Does anyone use the PCGS Price Guide and the CAC Price Guide when establishing the fair market value (FMV) currently required (in the US) to document the stepped-up cost basis when a collection is part of estate settlement (transfer inherited assets to surving beneficiaries / heirs) at the date of death? If not, then why not? Also, what other options are used by experts to establish the FMV?
  • When it comes to dealing with the IRS in establishing stepped up values for cost basis, the more written black and white documentation one has in these subjective matters, the better.

    In my opinion, for coins not recently purchased, a stronger case can be made by using the two guides you mention than using a small handful of auction results, especially since these guides are now updated more frequently than years ago.

    However, for coins recently purchased before death, assuming these were arms length transactions, in my opinion would carry more weight than the guides. Since the eye appeal of every coin is different, a recent price paid, in my opinion, would be the strongest factor for determining stepped up cost basis.

    Steve
  • When it comes to dealing with the IRS in establishing stepped up values for cost basis, the more written black and white documentation one has in these subjective matters, the better.

    In my opinion, for coins not recently purchased, a stronger case can be made by using the two guides you mention than using a small handful of auction results, especially since these guides are now updated more frequently than years ago.

    However, for coins recently purchased before death, assuming these were arms length transactions, in my opinion would carry more weight than the guides. Since the eye appeal of every coin is different, a recent price paid, in my opinion, would be the strongest factor for determining stepped up cost basis.

    Steve

    Hey Steve,

    Your reasoning here is extremely helpful and basically what I was hoping to hear. I would like to know if anyone else has any suggestions and I know to not read the posts as "advice" in the legal sense. I also anticipate the FMV will be an interesting "challenge" for estate planning if (or dare I say .. when) the stepped-up cost basis (for collectibles) is eliminated from the US tax laws. Thank you so much!

    --John
  • I probably should create a new post for a few additional questions that I have, but I hope that you all can help me here. Does anyone use the PCGS Price Guide and the CAC Price Guide when establishing the fair market value (FMV) currently required (in the US) to document the stepped-up cost basis when a collection is part of estate settlement (transfer inherited assets to surving beneficiaries / heirs) at the date of death? If not, then why not? Also, what other options are used by experts to establish the FMV?

    When providing FMV assessments, I tend to place significant weight on auction prices realized, while also considering price guides.
  • MarkFeld said:

    I probably should create a new post for a few additional questions that I have, but I hope that you all can help me here. Does anyone use the PCGS Price Guide and the CAC Price Guide when establishing the fair market value (FMV) currently required (in the US) to document the stepped-up cost basis when a collection is part of estate settlement (transfer inherited assets to surving beneficiaries / heirs) at the date of death? If not, then why not? Also, what other options are used by experts to establish the FMV?

    When providing FMV assessments, I tend to place significant weight on auction prices realized, while also considering price guides.
    I imagine that you're probably using analytical techniques similar to real estate "comps" when documenting your assessment results and I appreciate your sharing some insight. Thank you so much!
  • John F has been spending his time answering all of our numerous thread questions that he has not been able to spend as much time on keeping the CAC pricing up to date. LOL.
  • I confirm that I’ve also seen higher PCGS Price Guide values vs. CAC guide. I also have been outbid of at least a dozen CAC coins in the last 3 months at GC auctions, even after exceeding the price guides sometimes by 20%. None of the coins I “lost” are registry candidates but instead are toned, eye appealing rarities in so-called collector grades and value (e.g., au58, ms64 @ $1-3,000). It seems that a larger market for these coins has suddenly appeared. I agree with another collector who posted that as the FED raises interest rates aggressively to tame inflation, this could take the steam out of this market. But who really knows?
  • All I know is that last month when I won the bid at GC on a PCGS 1929 $20 Saint ms 64 and another 1927 ms 67 I notified PCGS about the prices realized etc.

     2 days later ( next business day ) the PCGS price guide went from $55,000, to $62,500 for another day or so then settled at $65,000
     The 23D , 24 , 27 & 28 Saints in ms 67 were bumped to $22,500 

    Id like to think I had some influence in getting that updated .     

    And I think it’s justified as we see values /  prices hitting new highs .   Exciting times for sure . 
    ( coins were all non CAC ) 
  • edited March 26
    Will try research on material have that’s both.  Lag in updating, rapidly changing Mkt conditions?

    I use PCGS app as inventory manager  for My PCGS material. Any CAC pieces I look at CAC CPG take higher of 2 for what I call Sell.  Like keeping it simple. 

    I don’t see how somebody can make a broad generalization PCGS higher than CAC.  What studies have you done doing random audit sample / basis.  Can you site a specific series?  What is the basis for your numbers / assumption?

    Frankly it comes down to cost plus or what I do above.  Don’t have time ponder how the big guys operate.  I just keep my operation basic / simple and work my angle for my business lol.  I do believe auc bid up and have not bought anything via auc in ages.  I mainly view auc as what sold for steal or somebody way overpaid (end user).
  • I haven't done any scientific studies on the matter. Just noted that PCGS Price Guide values on many of the coins I look up had moved higher than their CAC Price Guide counterparts. I'm not a dealer, just a collector. I make my money elsewhere and just spend it on coins. I'm kinda new even as a collector, and when I want to purchase a coin at auction or directly from a dealer, I need some kind of guide to see what it is worth. I also look at past sales and auction results to get a feel for what the coin might go for.
  • I am finding it tough to caculate prices using any price guides. 
      
  • PCGS has 3 full time people working on their price guides. One attends shows and knows of the actual transactions.

    I do not know who or what CAC uses.
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