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Why are PCGS beaned coins considered better coins than NGC beaned coins?

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  • edited April 2022
    In regards my PCGS submission:

    Cross Overs:

    I just put down grade on holder (submittal)  as minimum grade on PCGS submission form.  Or in certain instances not putting down a minimum grade (inexpensive item).
  • Legend said:
    I have sold ONLY PCGS CAC coins to the public since it began. My sales of NON CAC coins are handful per year. I am market marketer in PCGS CAC coins. Yes, I am/was unhappy about coin docs and PGCS. But they seem to be grading tighter these days. Today, in MY opinion, with out a doubt, NGC DOES grade more commercially. That means they will always give you that extra kick to make the next grade or what what ever. The public sees more of PCGS. They also see not everything crosses. SO how the heck (without a 5 page response) would people want to buy an NGC CAC coin for top dollar? Please, NEVER call me a salesperson. I support what I see is right. CAC is right. You get the most value/liquidity out of PCGS CAC coins. That is what I deal in
    I am by no means PCGS only, and I buy NGC coins as well as raw or other holders as well. With that said, paragraph 3 of the quoted post is spot on. Take a look at this Stella and buffalo nickel error:
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1073057/unique-gold-buffalo-nickel-is-straight-graded-au53

    It is egregious that NGC straight graded either of the coins. And while you can find counter examples going the other way, NGC typically is more likely to give a coin leeway IMHO, and the market has taken notice. When I see a quality NGC non CAC or NGC CAC coin, I view it as an opportunity to save money and way to increase value. Every little bit helps. 

  • edited March 2022
    Legend said:
    I have sold ONLY PCGS CAC coins to the public since it began. My sales of NON CAC coins are handful per year.
    I think it would be more accurate to say that you sell mostly PCGS CAC coins. You’ve sold a handful of NGC CAC coins over the years. I happened to buy one of them from you a few years ago. It was a pretty awesome (though cheap at less than $5k) coin. 
  • If you send NGC coins to crossover to PCGS, maybe better to stipulate only same grade or better. Then, if it doesn’t cross, you get the coin back as it was sent in. No grade loss. 
    But I’m still out the walkthrough fees , overnight shipping etc .   It’s a $300 ordeal each time just to get an unjust DNC .   I do specify grade.   It’s not worth losing $7,000 because your NGC ms 67 Saint is now a 66 or 66+.   Good suggestion for those that haven’t considered it or done it before for sure.  👍🏻👍🏻
    And then you still have the prospect of having an awesome with a still empty registry slot. I don’t personally care about registry sets, but I definitely see how it along with marketing factor into the pricing differential.

  • Legend said:

    I have sold ONLY PCGS CAC coins to the public since it began. My sales of NON CAC coins are handful per year. I am market marketer in PCGS CAC coins.

    Yes, I am/was unhappy about coin docs and PGCS. But they seem to be grading tighter these days.

    Today, in MY opinion, with out a doubt, NGC DOES grade more commercially. That means they will always give you that extra kick to make the next grade or what what ever. The public sees more of PCGS. They also see not everything crosses. SO how the heck (without a 5 page response) would people want to buy an NGC CAC coin for top dollar?

    Please, NEVER call me a salesperson. I support what I see is right. CAC is right. You get the most value/liquidity out of PCGS CAC coins. That is what I deal in

    I am by no means PCGS only, and I buy NGC coins as well as raw or other holders as well. With that said, paragraph 3 of the quoted post is spot on. Take a look at this Stella and buffalo nickel error:
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1073057/unique-gold-buffalo-nickel-is-straight-graded-au53

    It is egregious that NGC straight graded either of the coins. And while you can find counter examples going the other way, NGC typically is more likely to give a coin leeway IMHO, and the market has taken notice. When I see a quality NGC non CAC or NGC CAC coin, I view it as an opportunity to save money and way to increase value. Every little bit helps. 



    You can find examples of PCGS straight-grading coins with issues in the very same thread.
  • But I’m still out the walkthrough fees , overnight shipping etc . It’s a $300 ordeal each time just to get an unjust DNC . I do specify grade. It’s not worth losing $7,000 because your NGC ms 67 Saint is now a 66 or 66+. Good suggestion for those that haven’t considered it or done it before for sure. 👍🏻👍🏻PCGS as a certain look they want. You should have let someone look at your coins first. You could have saved on aggravation.

    I just bought five figure 9 NGC CAC coins from auction. I thought they all sold 10-15%% too cheap. They ALL crossed. All but 2 are sold. Boom! If they were NGC still they would be lingering. Its the power of the holder (and more marketing). I am in no way saying PCGS is perfect.
  • Legend said:

    But I’m still out the walkthrough fees , overnight shipping etc . It’s a $300 ordeal each time just to get an unjust DNC . I do specify grade. It’s not worth losing $7,000 because your NGC ms 67 Saint is now a 66 or 66+. Good suggestion for those that haven’t considered it or done it before for sure. 👍🏻👍🏻PCGS as a certain look they want. You should have let someone look at your coins first. You could have saved on aggravation.

    I just bought five figure 9 NGC CAC coins from auction. I thought they all sold 10-15%% too cheap. They ALL crossed. All but 2 are sold. Boom! If they were NGC still they would be lingering. Its the power of the holder (and more marketing). I am in no way saying PCGS is perfect.



    I do have to comment: Sigh.....

    Via that Post, you're contradicting your previous position, and doing so in agreement with my position.

    I really do love logic posits. We all do the darndest things.
  • huh? Maybe I'm too tired. I kept my same stance
  • Legend said:
    huh? Maybe I'm too tired. I kept my same stance
    Nah, you're good...No contradiction at all.
    Risk/reward.
    Nice work by the way.




  • And they won’t cross . I think it’s political and intentional for the reasons you stated. Shame on them for messing with collectors instead of just looking at the coins and making an honest decision . .  
    Well said Savage! Love it!

  • Many insights on this thread…in my humble opinion, I believe the root reason lies in the aesthetics of the holder. This point was touched on by several others but I’ll take it a step further.

    If you surveyed the average CAC coin collector on a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 highly preferring ngc and 5 highly preferring pcgs and 3 being indifferent and basing purely on holder aesthetics; I would expect that the majority of those who don’t vote 3, would vote 4 or 5 rather than 1 or 2. If you buy this supposition, then all other points on this thread regarding marketing, pricing mechanics, biases and even market manipulation, all add fuel to the fire and simply further expand the built in aesthetic based market preference. Now that “fuel to the fire “ could mean that pcgs CAC coins are over priced and ngc CAC is under priced, but it’s not that simple.

    Now getting back the original questions posted; each coin needs to be evaluated appropriately and there are many factors to consider of course….I’m sure I’m not alone in stating that there are plenty of pcgs CAC coins in the same grade/issue that garner substantially different prices in auction or outright sales through dealers. And this happens on NGC CAC coins too. The degree of “price difference” and whether arbitrage opportunities exist will need to be evaluated case by case based on your assessment of the coin itself and the market dynamics relevant for that coin along with your collecting and/or investing objectives.

    CAC publishes monthly reports that compare CAC coin prices realized at auction vs non CAC same issue/ grade coin APRs…for further education and discovery on this thread’s topic, I would encourage you to analyze APR deltas on CAC only coins with same issue/grade and see if those deltas seem “warranted “ based on the pics…tough to do properly without the coin in hand but it’s a good place to start IMO.
  • @Nick - your assertion about holder preferences based upon aesthetics being a major factor is likely true although I do hear annadotally "the holder doesn't matter" from many collectors. They may be in the minority or are lying!
  • Would NGC changing to a Dansco-like background change the game?
    :D
  • Pyrite said:
    Would NGC changing to a Dansco-like background change the game? :D
    Going to a thinner holder to allow more light on smaller diameter coins and toned coins would be a break through. Getting rid of the ugly white prongs would be nice too.

    The brand of plastic or lack of plastic all together doesn’t phase me, but with rare exceptions (e.g. some star designation coins) I’ll try cross it to PCGS if I can do it economically.
  • Catbert said:

    @Nick - your assertion about holder preferences based upon aesthetics being a major factor is likely true although I do hear annadotally "the holder doesn't matter" from many collectors. They may be in the minority or are lying!

    Yes, if they like the coin, the holder doesn’t matter, meaning, simplistically, they’ll buy the coin for a “fair price”, regardless of holder. I wouldn’t assume people are lying or that those collectors are in the minority. But don’t mistake that sentiment for thinking that many people don’t have holder preferences and/or that the holder itself could impact how much someone is willing to pay either consciously or subconsciously…in my personal case, I don’t like ngc and I like pcgs in terms of holder aesthetics so when I buy a coin, if its ngc, I plan to cross it…since there is cost and risk involved there, I pay a premium for PCGS relative to ngc but that is my personal decision. I’m not arguing that my coin is “worth more” if it’s pcgs slabbed, only that I’m willing to pay more for the coin I want if it’s already pcgs slabbed. Of course, if my personal case here represents the majority sentiment, than by definition, pcgs coins on average are worth more than the same coin slabbed in the same grade at ngc.
  • Pyrite said:
    Would NGC changing to a Dansco-like background change the game? :D
    Going to a thinner holder to allow more light on smaller diameter coins and toned coins would be a break through. Getting rid of the ugly white prongs would be nice too.

    The brand of plastic or lack of plastic all together doesn’t phase me, but with rare exceptions (e.g. some star designation coins) I’ll try cross it to PCGS if I can do it economically.
    Your thoughts on the PCGS holder is right on. It’s a very unappealing plastic tomb, ugly as sin. Who are the marketing dumbbells who developed this holder. I bought 1 NGC older holder I am trying to cross now, conservatively graded. 
  • Stevie said:
    Pyrite said:
    Would NGC changing to a Dansco-like background change the game? :D
    Going to a thinner holder to allow more light on smaller diameter coins and toned coins would be a break through. Getting rid of the ugly white prongs would be nice too.

    The brand of plastic or lack of plastic all together doesn’t phase me, but with rare exceptions (e.g. some star designation coins) I’ll try cross it to PCGS if I can do it economically.
    Your thoughts on the NGC holder is right on. It’s a very unappealing plastic tomb, ugly as sin. Who are the marketing dumbbells who developed this holder. I bought 1 NGC older holder I am trying to cross now, conservatively graded. 

  • Realone said:

    BillJones said:

    I will post these pictures and let people comment. Both of these Classic Head $5 gold coins are graded AU-58.

    This one is in an Old Green Label (OGL) PCGS AU-58 holder. It has no CAC sticker, but I'm guessing that it has never been submitted. I bought it in an auction run by one of the big houses 5 and a half years ago.



    This one is NGC AU-58 CAC graded.




    Which one do you like better?

    I wish that you used photos of the same die marriage/date (as unrealistic as it may sound) in which to compare. But I have to also add that photos taken differently add to the problem of comparing too.
    Yes, IMO an unrealistic request as in this particular case any difference in die marriage is not important. IMO, Bill's images are good enough to easily make a comparison and note the very obvious difference in the two coins.

  • Well, crossing all NGC CAC coins to a CAC holder will even out the disparity between the two.....collectors ought to start buying those NGC CAC coins that sell at a discount to PCGS CAC and cross to the new CAC service holder when its avaialbe.
  • Legend said:

    NGC has too many bad coins in their holders period and seem to grade more commercially.



    PCGS has done an outstanding job of marketing for their product. There is no question PCGS CAC coins bring the most money.

    Also, the PCGS registry is far stronger and bigger.

    Laura’s first and second comments are her observation and opinion.

    Third comment probably refers to the dollar value of the PCGS registry vs NGC registry. IT IS FACTUAL.

    I do not see where Laura’s post is bluster and misinformation.
    It does mostly represent her opinion.
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