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My Biggest Upgrade of All Time: MS60 to MS65

A 1944 pattern Lincoln penny that went from MS60BN to MS65BN after I delicately conserved it with innocuous compounds. That removed gunk had really subdued the electrifying silvery cartwheel luster. CAC even approved it in its MS65BN slab!

But I know one dealer who could sometimes turn BN copper into PCGS RD! But he also ruined many as I did. Copper conservation is always a crapshoot. Definitely not for the faint at heart. You never know what is under the gunk.

I have always had the best results with BN copper. If it has too much RD, conservation will likely ruin it.

FYI, many of that dealer's BN to RD coins turned in their slabs within mere months. Poor PCGS probably had to eat them.

Comments

  • @CACfan said: "Maybe not cleaned with an actual liquid, but at least wiped and thus not acceptable to CAC."
  • Dipping coins in innocuous liquid compounds is not the same as dipping them in a harsh acid dip, nor is any wiping involved.
  • My biggest upgrade was a 1795 XF 45 Flowing hair dollar in an anacs holder. It is now NGC XF 45 Mint Silver Plug
  • WilliamJ said:

    My biggest upgrade was a 1795 XF 45 Flowing hair dollar in an anacs holder. It is now NGC XF 45 Mint Silver Plug

    Whoa, now that is something to be proud & excited about. I also can see how silver plugs can be missed at times especially if it was in an old ANACS holder from 30+ or- years ago when I believe nobody knew that they existed. Congrats!
  • edited April 30
    CACfan said:

    A 1944 pattern Lincoln penny that went from MS60BN to MS65BN after I delicately conserved it with innocuous compounds. That removed gunk had really subdued the electrifying silvery cartwheel luster. CAC even approved it in its MS65BN slab!

    But I know one dealer who could sometimes turn BN copper into PCGS RD! But he also ruined many as I did. Copper conservation is always a crapshoot. Definitely not for the faint at heart. You never know what is under the gunk.

    I have always had the best results with BN copper. If it has too much RD, conservation will likely ruin it.

    FYI, many of that dealer's BN to RD coins turned in their slabs within mere months. Poor PCGS probably had to eat them.

    PCGS hasn’t guaranteed the color of copper coins graded (or sold) since 2010.
  • It appears the hobby is set up for coin doctors/sellers/dealers by way of them resubmitting to the services for upgrades for profits. IE taking advantage of the big hole in the hobby, the elephant in the room ie that grading is allowed to be subjective providing a loophole for grading cos to have the freedom to make mistakes without any liability.
    I find it funny that collectors enable/allow/support such a policy. Why is it when I have a coin and send it to CAC and discuss it with JA there is no question as to grade to his eyes. Yet the grading cos throw multiple graders at a given coin and still rely on subjectivity to avoid responsibility. This is what turns me off to the hobby. It is no longer the hobby of kings, it s the hobby of upgraders or the hobby of subjectivity and nothing else. I won't play the game and have a few select pieces for study and enjoyment and if I have a coin that tis obviously under graded in an older holder, there it stays for the duration of my caretakership.
    Go ahead gentleman blow me up.
  • Realone said:

    It appears the hobby is set up for coin doctors/sellers/dealers by way of them resubmitting to the services for upgrades for profits. IE taking advantage of the big hole in the hobby, the elephant in the room ie that grading is allowed to be subjective providing a loophole for grading cos to have the freedom to make mistakes without any liability.
    I find it funny that collectors enable/allow/support such a policy. Why is it when I have a coin and send it to CAC and discuss it with JA there is no question as to grade to his eyes. Yet the grading cos throw multiple graders at a given coin and still rely on subjectivity to avoid responsibility. This is what turns me off to the hobby. It is no longer the hobby of kings, it s the hobby of upgraders or the hobby of subjectivity and nothing else. I won't play the game and have a few select pieces for study and enjoyment and if I have a coin that tis obviously under graded in an older holder, there it stays for the duration of my caretakership.
    Go ahead gentleman blow me up.

    How do you propose that collectors disallow the subjectivity of grading and the ability of the grading companies to avoid liability?
  • Realone said:
    My biggest upgrade was a 1795 XF 45 Flowing hair dollar in an anacs holder. It is now NGC XF 45 Mint Silver Plug
    Whoa, now that is something to be proud & excited about. I also can see how silver plugs can be missed at times especially if it was in an old ANACS holder from 30+ or- years ago when I believe nobody knew that they existed. Congrats!
    Thank you!
        I was really excited and it was in an old holder. I didn't even realize that it had the mint plug until a few days after I bought the coin. I  showed it to the dealer that I bought it from and he was embarrassed that he had missed seeing it. 
        
  • Realone said:

    It appears the hobby is set up for coin doctors/sellers/dealers by way of them resubmitting to the services for upgrades for profits. IE taking advantage of the big hole in the hobby, the elephant in the room ie that grading is allowed to be subjective providing a loophole for grading cos to have the freedom to make mistakes without any liability.
    I find it funny that collectors enable/allow/support such a policy. Why is it when I have a coin and send it to CAC and discuss it with JA there is no question as to grade to his eyes. Yet the grading cos throw multiple graders at a given coin and still rely on subjectivity to avoid responsibility. This is what turns me off to the hobby. It is no longer the hobby of kings, it s the hobby of upgraders or the hobby of subjectivity and nothing else. I won't play the game and have a few select pieces for study and enjoyment and if I have a coin that tis obviously under graded in an older holder, there it stays for the duration of my caretakership.
    Go ahead gentleman blow me up.

    i truly believe that your perspective represents the best way to think about our hobby and providing a good starting point for future generations to also study and enjoy the way you (and i) do while taking care of coins until they are handed over to the next person in our hobby

    thank you so much!
  • MarkFeld said:

    Realone said:

    It appears the hobby is set up for coin doctors/sellers/dealers by way of them resubmitting to the services for upgrades for profits. IE taking advantage of the big hole in the hobby, the elephant in the room ie that grading is allowed to be subjective providing a loophole for grading cos to have the freedom to make mistakes without any liability.
    I find it funny that collectors enable/allow/support such a policy. Why is it when I have a coin and send it to CAC and discuss it with JA there is no question as to grade to his eyes. Yet the grading cos throw multiple graders at a given coin and still rely on subjectivity to avoid responsibility. This is what turns me off to the hobby. It is no longer the hobby of kings, it s the hobby of upgraders or the hobby of subjectivity and nothing else. I won't play the game and have a few select pieces for study and enjoyment and if I have a coin that tis obviously under graded in an older holder, there it stays for the duration of my caretakership.
    Go ahead gentleman blow me up.

    How do you propose that collectors disallow the subjectivity of grading and the ability of the grading companies to avoid liability?
    perhaps it's really the coin and not the holder
  • MarkFeld said:

    Realone said:

    It appears the hobby is set up for coin doctors/sellers/dealers by way of them resubmitting to the services for upgrades for profits. IE taking advantage of the big hole in the hobby, the elephant in the room ie that grading is allowed to be subjective providing a loophole for grading cos to have the freedom to make mistakes without any liability.
    I find it funny that collectors enable/allow/support such a policy. Why is it when I have a coin and send it to CAC and discuss it with JA there is no question as to grade to his eyes. Yet the grading cos throw multiple graders at a given coin and still rely on subjectivity to avoid responsibility. This is what turns me off to the hobby. It is no longer the hobby of kings, it s the hobby of upgraders or the hobby of subjectivity and nothing else. I won't play the game and have a few select pieces for study and enjoyment and if I have a coin that tis obviously under graded in an older holder, there it stays for the duration of my caretakership.
    Go ahead gentleman blow me up.

    How do you propose that collectors disallow the subjectivity of grading and the ability of the grading companies to avoid liability?
    I don't know
  • I was in a major city...  was working out a deal on some Walkers.  Was talking to the dealer at the offices where he was based... I was complaining about a MPL that I had just gotten back... bagged by PCGS.  One of the associates in the office a very well known and senior member on the CU forums took said coin and put some oil/chemical on the coin and rubbed it between his thumb and index finger for about 30 seconds....  he then placed the coin in a flip and filled out an NGC submission slip... the coin to this day resides in a 66BN NGC holder.

      It was a very eye opening experience for me.  
     I have used silver dip once (hated the appearance afterwards) and acetone soaks a few times.
      Spending a few hours in the offices and watching what was going on...  just some eye opening stuff.

      
  • ATSWins said:

    I was in a major city...  was working out a deal on some Walkers.  Was talking to the dealer at the offices where he was based... I was complaining about a MPL that I had just gotten back... bagged by PCGS.  One of the associates in the office a very well known and senior member on the CU forums took said coin and put some oil/chemical on the coin and rubbed it between his thumb and index finger for about 30 seconds....  he then placed the coin in a flip and filled out an NGC submission slip... the coin to this day resides in a 66BN NGC holder.

      It was a very eye opening experience for me.  
     I have used silver dip once (hated the appearance afterwards) and acetone soaks a few times.
      Spending a few hours in the offices and watching what was going on...  just some eye opening stuff.

      

    Such a shame to hear about this incident.
    I would hate to own such a coin knowing what was done to it ie not being original surfaces and then I think about my entire collection and what I had not witnessed to those coins over the years. I shutter to think about it. It just shows you what could have been done and has been done and what will be done to coins in order to upgrade them because money is to be paid thus providing adequate motivation. :(
    Thanks for alerting me to the possibilities
  • Realone said:

    ATSWins said:

    I was in a major city...  was working out a deal on some Walkers.  Was talking to the dealer at the offices where he was based... I was complaining about a MPL that I had just gotten back... bagged by PCGS.  One of the associates in the office a very well known and senior member on the CU forums took said coin and put some oil/chemical on the coin and rubbed it between his thumb and index finger for about 30 seconds....  he then placed the coin in a flip and filled out an NGC submission slip... the coin to this day resides in a 66BN NGC holder.

      It was a very eye opening experience for me.  
     I have used silver dip once (hated the appearance afterwards) and acetone soaks a few times.
      Spending a few hours in the offices and watching what was going on...  just some eye opening stuff.

      

    Such a shame to hear about this incident.
    I would hate to own such a coin knowing what was done to it ie not being original surfaces and then I think about my entire collection and what I had not witnessed to those coins over the years. I shutter to think about it. It just shows you what could have been done and has been done and what will be done to coins in order to upgrade them because money is to be paid thus providing adequate motivation. :(
    Thanks for alerting me to the possibilities
    +1

    i actually was as sad as you appear to have also reacted when hearing about this incident

    i must say that some people like @Legend and @corgilover have convinced me that messing with a coin like doctoring etc. is truly hurtful to those of us who love this hobby for the originality that we hope to protect

    i now appreciate others like @ptolemyII and @MarkFeld for sharing so many insightful posts on this forum to help me understand what's been happening to the coins (and grading) over time and i want to learn as much as i possibly can

    perhaps i may also help future generations care for what we hand to them as the next custodians of the @JACAC approved coins in our collections

    thank you so much!
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