Seth asked his instagram followers if JA understands color. A third said no. Seth asked them to show coins with color that did not sticker and discusses it with JA.
that was a very interesting discussion. Some of my takeaways.. the coin under the toning (technical grade) matters. Even if the coin is technically all there, if the toning is ugly, it won't sticker. The landscape of what constitutes QC is constantly shifting as the doctors develop new techniques to get past the TPG's and CAC. And, there is still an element of subjectivity to what JA and all graders do (darned humans!).
Nice discussion- wish they had done more coins! Maybe a part 2? Seth? John?
Ugly toning- no sticker for you Attractive toning- overgraded coin- no sticker for you Nice toning- accurately graded coin- winner winner chicken dinner!
That "cover photo" of JA is from his driver's license. He's so nearsighted he can't see the other cars. At 18"-24" he's less prone to mistakes. Great interview too. Seth's done a lot of fine work spreading knowledge
Well-chosen coins that illustrate the few general "rules" for CAC assessment. @ChasK summed it up well What I noted was that, while the intent of the topic was to somewhat eliminate confusion about colorations, the rejection most prevalent resulted from of technical over-grading.
Half of the CAC coins that I bought from the latest major auction had toning uglier than the profit that I will make on them. It is called originality. But rotate them under a PCGS light and notice the immense luster for their respective grades, which you will see much less of on the far prettier but heavily processed and thus non-CAC coins.
Most of my retail buyers think that luster is the brightness level of coins. I cannot tell them anything, so I just let the CAC stickers do the talking.
But watch out for those second- and third-tier slab stickers that seem to approve everything that is not jet black. One such service has actually stickered more coins than CAC has, as I proved in a prior thread, but they mainly approve cheap classic coins and painfully common modern stuff. Hopefully, these inferior sticker services will never catch on for pricier, truly rare coins. It will be a disservice to the industry if they ever do.
One technique used by certain coin doctors to beautifully tone silver coins is to brush a water/sulfur solution onto an actual canvas Mint bag and press BU Morgans against it. Once the coin has gorgeously toned, they use bleach to eliminate the sulfur odor, vinegar to get rid of the bleach smell, and baking soda to neutralize any remaining stink. And let us not forget very hot water for good measure.
Half of the CAC coins that I bought from the latest major auction had toning uglier than the profit that I will make on them. It is called originality. But rotate them under a PCGS light and notice the immense luster for their respective grades, which you will see much less of on the far prettier but heavily processed and thus non-CAC coins.
As we used to say on the CU Forum, this statement is "useless without pitchers". I have yet to see one picture of a coin this inscrutably anonymous dealer has bought or sold. A picture of a coin either ugly or beautiful. If anyone can track him down because of a MS62 Type II gold dollar getting a sticker, let me suggest better uses of your time
And most of his statements about doctoring and conservation, while having some grain of truth, are overwrought. "actual canvas Mint bag".... Nice fairy tale. Take it from a retired coin doctor who's advised JA and the PNG on the subject. "His" entire process is absurd.
Good advice, especially to this specific audience. ROFLMAO Here, especially, that ain't exactly late-breaking news...Watch out for those 3rd-tier grading stickers, one and all
And don't think too hard about apples when a false equivalency distracts you from that orange. Good grief
In addition to knowing everything else, you are now a chemistry expert, "Ptolemy"? I have seen the canvas bag trick done in person. But you know everything and I know nothing. After all, you call yourself "Ptolemy".
No worries, the real Ptolemy has no competition. He is not rolling over in his grave.
And JA might want to find new "experts" to advise him given the number of CAC coins with fake toning that should have gotten JA's "AT" dot. And laser smoothing (not just proof gold).
In addition to knowing everything else, you are now a chemistry expert,
.
JA has lots of experts on lots of subjects. A few weeks ago, I disagreed with him (in-hand) about a truly world-class early gold coin. A straight-up technical issue made the color more interesting than critical. On the first, we agreed. On the second, not. Mostly. Then we discussed it. No right or wrong. Two old pros jamming on a great coin, its virtues and its woes. A pure accident, as the owner and I had overlapping visits. Or I never would have even known it was in and out of the shop.
But to imagine I currently advise CAC on any grading decision is to overstate an importance I've never claimed. On the other hand, there are things I've seen and learned since I bought my first gem type gold coins in 1973 that very few others now around have had a chance to encounter. Helping JA start NGC didn't hurt. We've seen a lot of things alike for a long time. But you can't imagine how humbled I've been by what I've gotten wrong (and survived, and thrived). I'm here because my tuition costs in this industry were six-figures and I'd like to see some useful knowledge passed along.
I've mentioned livers of sulfur in another thread. Have you seen similar results with flowers of sulfur? Which is more water-soluble? What's the titration level for each?
So my credentials are established, albeit my expert authority has its boundaries and limits. Your interminable inanities indicate little else but a need for demonstrably unentitled attention. Mint bag? Not many have escaped the banking system. Why a valuable Mint bag when any piece of canvas would suffice. Someone must have been pulling the wool over your eyes.
And get a thesaurus. Your insults are boringly repetitive.
If I weren't going to stroke out at the 91 degree temperature here, I'd likely be at Greg Cohen's (of Legend Auctions) son Benny's baseball game. Then I wouldn't have noticed this thread until tomorrow
That Indian QE was putrid. I would love to rinse that O mint dollar in highly-diluted sudsy ammonia. There is an intervening inspection and analysis to be performed prior to going under the sink for the conservationist's not-so-secret-sauce of the day. The Sorcerer's Apprentice stocks up at Home Depot and the supermarket.
I am happy that everyone got something out of this and I am sure that John is as well. Thank you for the kind words.
I would love to take credit for the video, but it was John’s idea - after learning the phrase “John doesn’t know color” is being thrown around.
I wished I would have talked a lot less and John more, but, like SlabLab, I have to rephrase and reframe many topics so newbies, the not so experienced, and Laura can understand.
There’s many more topics we could cover, but it’s all up to John.
Thanks, John for partaking in this - in the spirit of education. Shout out to Daniel - good work on the editing, especially a zoom video, which ain’t easy!
My biggest takeaway is that people make grand assumptions on why a particular coin didn’t sticker. Then whatever they have assumed to be the cause they attribute to CAC as being a failure or whatever to identify those kinds of things correctly.
Comments
Ugly toning- no sticker for you
Attractive toning- overgraded coin- no sticker for you
Nice toning- accurately graded coin- winner winner chicken dinner!
Great interview too. Seth's done a lot of fine work spreading knowledge
Well-chosen coins that illustrate the few general "rules" for CAC assessment. @ChasK summed it up well
What I noted was that, while the intent of the topic was to somewhat eliminate confusion about colorations, the rejection most prevalent resulted from of technical over-grading.
15 seconds each, no previewing, pass or fail and why
Just talk us through each one
Half of the CAC coins that I bought from the latest major auction had toning uglier than the profit that I will make on them. It is called originality. But rotate them under a PCGS light and notice the immense luster for their respective grades, which you will see much less of on the far prettier but heavily processed and thus non-CAC coins.
Most of my retail buyers think that luster is the brightness level of coins. I cannot tell them anything, so I just let the CAC stickers do the talking.
But watch out for those second- and third-tier slab stickers that seem to approve everything that is not jet black. One such service has actually stickered more coins than CAC has, as I proved in a prior thread, but they mainly approve cheap classic coins and painfully common modern stuff. Hopefully, these inferior sticker services will never catch on for pricier, truly rare coins. It will be a disservice to the industry if they ever do.
One technique used by certain coin doctors to beautifully tone silver coins is to brush a water/sulfur solution onto an actual canvas Mint bag and press BU Morgans against it. Once the coin has gorgeously toned, they use bleach to eliminate the sulfur odor, vinegar to get rid of the bleach smell, and baking soda to neutralize any remaining stink. And let us not forget very hot water for good measure.
No bean for you!
By the way, there really is a Soup Nazi; for the video, search "The Real Soup Nazi (No Soup For You Edition)".
I have yet to see one picture of a coin this inscrutably anonymous dealer has bought or sold. A picture of a coin either ugly or beautiful.
If anyone can track him down because of a MS62 Type II gold dollar getting a sticker, let me suggest better uses of your time
And most of his statements about doctoring and conservation, while having some grain of truth, are overwrought.
"actual canvas Mint bag".... Nice fairy tale. Take it from a retired coin doctor who's advised JA and the PNG on the subject. "His" entire process is absurd.
Good advice, especially to this specific audience. ROFLMAO
And don't think too hard about apples when a false equivalency distracts you from that orange. Good grief
No worries, the real Ptolemy has no competition. He is not rolling over in his grave.
And JA might want to find new "experts" to advise him given the number of CAC coins with fake toning that should have gotten JA's "AT" dot. And laser smoothing (not just proof gold).
JA has lots of experts on lots of subjects. A few weeks ago, I disagreed with him (in-hand) about a truly world-class early gold coin. A straight-up technical issue made the color more interesting than critical. On the first, we agreed. On the second, not. Mostly. Then we discussed it. No right or wrong. Two old pros jamming on a great coin, its virtues and its woes. A pure accident, as the owner and I had overlapping visits. Or I never would have even known it was in and out of the shop.
But to imagine I currently advise CAC on any grading decision is to overstate an importance I've never claimed. On the other hand, there are things I've seen and learned since I bought my first gem type gold coins in 1973 that very few others now around have had a chance to encounter. Helping JA start NGC didn't hurt. We've seen a lot of things alike for a long time. But you can't imagine how humbled I've been by what I've gotten wrong (and survived, and thrived). I'm here because my tuition costs in this industry were six-figures and I'd like to see some useful knowledge passed along.
I've mentioned livers of sulfur in another thread. Have you seen similar results with flowers of sulfur? Which is more water-soluble? What's the titration level for each?
So my credentials are established, albeit my expert authority has its boundaries and limits. Your interminable inanities indicate little else but a need for demonstrably unentitled attention. Mint bag? Not many have escaped the banking system. Why a valuable Mint bag when any piece of canvas would suffice. Someone must have been pulling the wool over your eyes.
And get a thesaurus. Your insults are boringly repetitive.
If I weren't going to stroke out at the 91 degree temperature here, I'd likely be at Greg Cohen's (of Legend Auctions) son Benny's baseball game. Then I wouldn't have noticed this thread until tomorrow
There are very few people who are as knowledgeable, helpful, unselfish and humble as John.