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Concluded

C2CC2C
edited June 16 in Grading
Thanks to Mark for helping.
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  • CAC does not publicize non-stickered coins. Coins that have not been stickered are sometimes stickered upon re-evaluation. Deeming a coin a CAC failure is ultimately not helpful
  • C2C said:

    Hello everyone,

    This is more of a question series for other members than anything. I've been and am happily a CAC member. I don't always agree with every decision, and I don't suppose anyone would, but if I think a coin could be borderline top of grade, I'll send it in while refraining from any coins I don't think are close enough at grade.

    I've had a lot of trouble lately, as in all of 2022, getting coins CAC'd. My success rate, which was respectable early on, has plummeted to well under 5% overall and it includes mostly very high grade CC Morgan Dollars, with a little sprinkle of other higher grade type coins.

    I can submit some photos of some of the coins I've been most surprised with a non cac decision. I'm wondering if this is just me, or if others are noticing a steep decline in approvals?

    From a collectors perspective, I like the challenge of choosing a coin that is as good for grade as I can find. I prefer non cac purchases so that I can learn to discern top tier quality vs good quality. Here is a list of coins I've submitted. I'm happy to provide photos if wanted.

    1878-CC MS65, MS66, MS66 OGH "pq" sticker
    1879-CC MS63, MS64+
    1880-CC MS66 Rev of 1878 (CAC)
    1881-CC MS66+, MS67, MS67
    1882-CC MS66+, MS67
    1883-CC MS66+
    1884-CC MS66+, MS67 "pq sticker"
    1885-CC MS66, MS66PL,
    1889-CC AU58
    1890-CC MS65, MS65+ gold tone, MS65+ white
    1891-CC MS64PL Toned, MS65, MS65,
    1892-CC MS63, MS64, MS65, MS65, MS65+ (Resticker on the 65+)
    1893-CC MS63, MS63. One was dirty white, the other white. Both fully struck ear and breast feathers.


    I am just a collector and love doing this. I'm trying to understand the metrics used by CAC in judging coins based off of current cac pools at grade, my coins evaluated by at least two other non biased third party opinions, and any feedback from cac, which I'm not sure how to get, so I sent a note on a couple I asked to be reconsidered, I'll see if they respond. I already know they did not sticker.

    Part of my concern is that I may be purchasing non cac coins that have already been submitted and not cac'd, which there is literally no way of determining and I understand why. To reveal a coin did not CAC would prevent dealers from selling as easily, even if a coin "just" missed. But if a premium enough coin is missed in a cac busy streak (which I've accidentally stumbled into submitting just before both of this years suspensions), is it automatically disqualified by simply pulling the bar code upon receipt?

    If so, how can a review of an unknown failed cac coin be identified and resubmitted?


    Lots of questions there, I'm hoping to get some feedback from the community or even CAC itself, so that I can continue to improve my grading skills and not be forced to buy already CAC coins, which takes away a chunk of the fun. :)

    Happy Collecting Everyone.

    -William
    C2C

    Coins that CAC has declined to sticker are not automatically rejected if/when resubmitted.

    The coins you listed are valuable enough, that it’s likely someone had already submitted them to CAC before you acquired them.

    If your success rate is anywhere near (only) 5%, you don’t have a good grasp of the nuances of grading. While easier said than done, your best bet is to find an experienced and willing numismatist with whom you can sit down and review coins together.

  • CAC_Team said:

    CAC does not publicize non-stickered coins. Coins that have not been stickered are sometimes stickered upon re-evaluation. Deeming a coin a CAC failure is ultimately not helpful

    I couldn't find where I said "CAC Failure". Help?
  • C2CC2C
    edited June 16
    I misinterpreted your response. Thanks Mark. No post surgical message boards for me again... till at least a week out. haha...
  • edited June 15
    C2C said:
    “First, how do you know they review previously non cac coins? I haven't been able to get a straight yes or no on whether that look at every coin like new every time, regardless of past status. I think, from a business standpoint, given the overwhelming volume they have cited in suspensions of $10k and under coin submissions, it is highly unlikely, in my opinion, they would look at every coin with "first time eyes". It's not economical, and it would only lead to greater workload and strain. Given the idea that no coins are filtered out, why log non cac approvals at all?

    Second, Yes, I think good chance most of my coins have been submitted previously, but I could never know, even when I ask the seller.

    Third, I indicated in the post that I have them looked at by others that are non bias with ownership or anything else, purely analytical. Those I choose have far more experience then I do, one was a PCGS grader and is now a dealer, and I trust their guidance.

    As for the simple suggestion that I have poor grading skills or totally fail to grasp the nuances of grading, my success rate was much better before this year and you haven't seen the coins I'm referring to. There's just as much a chance you would have agreed with my questioning the non cac as not.

    Unless the quality of available coins is significantly decreased on the microscopic level I can't access at purchase, the coins I pick up are not easily perceptible as lesser quality, or even average. I literally target the best of a grade I can find. As for nuances of grading, grading is an acquired skill, but one that is based nearly entirely on opinion. PCGS and others have been adamant about "opinion". Setting aside the obviousness of strike quality and contact marks or the like, how do you predict unknown graders opinion in advance? I'd like to know, because overnighting coins in these value ranges and insuring them is expensive. If I can simply predict opinion, I would love to.


    Ultimately, I simply enjoy collecting nice coins and love the challenge of picking up gems that deserve top tier status "cac" that don't have it. I find my self on the side that believe CAC adds to the collecting universe, vs those that don't like the idea. The first two responses were discouraging. Please don't pick my words apart, or insult my grading capabilities, especially when none has seen a sample. The questions are honest and I'm trying to learn and grow in this field.”


    MarkFeld said:
    I believe that CAC reviews coins that previously failed to sticker because I’ve read numerous comments from them to that effect over the years.

    You could know whether those selling coins to you have submitted them to CAC previously if 1) you ask them and 2) they are honest.

    I don’t understand in what way I picked your words apart. I was trying to help you. I’m sorry you took offense to my post and that you found it and the CAC team reply “discouraging”.

    My comment about your grading skills was based on your stated success rate, which is roughly only 10% of the overall success rate for coins submitted to CAC. And I took into consideration the fact that certain types and grades of coins have much lower success rates than others.

    Regarding your reply to the CAC team (“I couldn't find where I said "CAC Failure". Help?”) - if a coin has been to CAC and not stickered, that’s a CAC “failure”, just as ones that have stickered are “passes”.
  • MarkFeld said:
    "You could know whether those selling coins to you have submitted them to CAC previously if 1) you ask them and 2) they are honest."

    Reply:
    I agree, honesty can be hard to get, and if they didn't, but the person before them had, very hard to discern. Honesty would be great. I work with a dealer in Northern Nevada that is always honest about a coin they sent or didn't. Other, it's impossible.

    MarkFeld said:
    "I don’t understand in what way I picked your words apart. I was trying to help you. I’m sorry you took offense to my post and that you found it and the CAC team reply “discouraging”."

    Reply:
    I'm sorry about that. I just got out of surgery and I think being super uncomfortable caused me to read in a negative light. I appreciate any help I can get, so please forgive my end.

    MarkFeld said:
    "My comment about your grading skills was based on your stated success rate, which is roughly only 10% of the overall success rate for coins submitted to CAC. And I took into consideration the fact that certain types and grades of coins have much lower success rates than others."

    Reply,
    Totally understandable. I'd think that of myself as well. Is it alright if I PM you some photos and maybe you can help me on them? It would be just a few specific non cac that I was actually surprised on.


    MarkFeld said:
    "Regarding your reply to the CAC team (“I couldn't find where I said "CAC Failure". Help?”) - if a coin has been to CAC and not stickered, that’s a CAC “failure”, just as ones that have stickered are “passes”."

    Reply,
    Yeah, so my interpretation of that comment by the CAC team was that they were telling me I was being "Ultimately Unhelpful". My response there was just that I hadn't seen where I used the specific wording, but maybe I misinterpreted them as well?

    I appreciate the followup and help. Let me know and I'll send some photos. Thanks Mark.

  • Private message sent.
  • edited June 17
    While my initial reaction was to stay away from this post, I’ll share my thoughts on the question posed. But first, this Disclosure: Right or wrong, I decided many years ago, when CAC first started around 2008/9 or so, that every coin in my collection should merit a CAC. That doesn’t mean that when I see a coin I need with a CAC I automatically buy it. Matter of fact, I pass on well over 80% of coins I need that have CAC’s because I just don’t like the eye appeal, or because it has a “+” grade and I don’t feel it’s solid for that “+”.

    Based on the above, almost all of the coins I buy have CAC’s at the time of purchase. But in 2022, I’ve submitted a handful of coins without CAC’s, and about 80% received a CAC. Most of these were submitted just before each hiatus, and evaluated during each hiatus.

    Steve
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