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CAC Pricing Discussion

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  • You could almost expand that observation about 75% of CC-Mints shouldn't be in straight-graded holders to include all Liberty Seated dollar issues. At least 50% of all examples out there.

    That PCGS/CAC VF-35 looks like a really nice, problem free, original coin. Here's a PCGS/CAC EF-45 with similar surface quality and original preservation:

    I know of (2) recent sales for PCGS/CAC EF-45s, one auction, one direct sale, at $10,000 each, plus or minus a few hundred $$s. The price guide is lagging behind here, as well, and flattening of the curve is again needed.

    In general I don't think that cracking out a "burned" coin and looking for a lower grade in the hopes of picking up a CAC sticker is a good idea. Originality of the surfaces is so critical for CAC approval, and I can't see a dipped and stripped AU-50 suddenly picking up a CAC sticker if it was suddenly "net graded" to an EF-40 holder.
  • @NarvaRiver

    I agree with your observations on CAC pricing for SLDs. There are so many dates that I can pick out and would be willing to say give me all that you have for that price… Problem is they are never for sale and when they do come up they sell for more. Especially the toughest dates!
  • edited December 2021
    I thought this coin had a very good chance to sticker as the surfaces, rims, and color are exceptional. Much better than I had seen across comparable grades. In the end I was told it did not have enough LIBERTY showing for the assigned F12 grade, but it would have a good chance in a VG holder. I thought about sending it in for a re-grade, but in the end decided that I know what it is and why spend the money and effort especially if I was to keep her. Even if selling, anyone with a good knowledge of the series and of surfaces in general would understand what it really is.



  • To properly stay on topic here in regard to CAC Pricing, I believe that the guide for the 70-CC was significantly adjusted upward after Pyrite’s VF35 set a new high for the issue. On the 1861, and other civil war date seated dollars, the guides have been lagging behind for some time now. The 1863 was adjusted after the VF30 auction result posted above by SeatedNut. As already noted, there are so many other dates in “circulated” grades that still need adjustment. The craziest thing is looking at the weighting of many dates pertaining to the PCGS registry, but I digress.
  • My friend wants to know why there is no price guide on the  1872-CC $20  cancelled die found by the State of Nevada at the Carson City Mint site (buried in the ground).  

    Just bringing this up to show that not everything can be priced. 
  • oreville said:
    My friend wants to know why there is no price guide on the  1872-CC $20  cancelled die found by the State of Nevada at the Carson City Mint site (buried in the ground).  

    Just bringing this up to show that not everything can be priced. 
    Point well taken. Our aim at CDN is to provide value guidance whereever it makes sense and, as you point out, not to chase fireflies like unique items. I believe there's no true right or wrong in this pursuit and sometime it's just plain fun to try and price items that haven't been tackled before. At least in mainstream pricing. For example, we've been slowly pricing esoteric items from VAMs to Colonial paper money. But we do it slowly and sometimes in piecemeal fashion (i.e. a few items at a time).
  • JF:  Thank you for offering to discuss CAC guide pricing with the rest of us.  I hope we can all learn more about your pricing “process” which you indicate does not use formulas. 

    So here goes:  According to the CAC guide for the 1843 liberty seated 25c, there are 30 green beaned examples, with a total of 5 in mint state: 1 in ms63 and 4 in ms64.  The aggregate pcgs and ngc populations for all MS specimens is 38 and 54, respectively, thus yielding a CAC approval rate at the mint state level of appx 5% based on total certified populations.  (I realize this is the minimum rate because surely not 100% of all examples have been submitted to CAC.)  

    The current listed CAC prices are $1580 and $2880 for ms63 and ms64, respectively.  Here are the auction records for CAC specimens I could find:

    Nov 2013 ngc ms64+ $3290 HA (ex. Newman)
    Jan 2017 pcgs ms64 $4465 HA
    Jan 2019 pcgs ms63 $3797 GC
    Dec 2021 pcgs ms63 $2280 HA (rattler)

    I also note this sale:
    Aug 2020 pcgs au58+ $2640 SBG 

    So, a coin with (a) a very low CAC pop in mint state vs total pops, (b) very limited auction sales data, (c) and 2 sales pre-pandemic > $3200 suggest to me that the price guide may need significant upward revision.  The fact that only a single ms63 has been beaned and resides in a rattler and recently sold for >$2200 while the one auction sale for the au58+ at $2640 indicates healthy price demand for these CAC approved examples.

    Please forgive any omissions of relevant data or errors in interpretation.  I look forward to your thoughts on this example. 



  • Of course, I just saw one error in my post:  the Jan 2019 sale at GC was a ms64, not ms63.  Hence, 3 of the 4 beaned 64 specimens have auction records, with an average price of $3851. 
  • JF:  Thank you for offering to discuss CAC guide pricing with the rest of us.  I hope we can all learn more about your pricing “process” which you indicate does not use formulas. 

    So here goes:  According to the CAC guide for the 1843 liberty seated 25c, there are 30 green beaned examples, with a total of 5 in mint state: 1 in ms63 and 4 in ms64.  The aggregate pcgs and ngc populations for all MS specimens is 38 and 54, respectively, thus yielding a CAC approval rate at the mint state level of appx 5% based on total certified populations.  (I realize this is the minimum rate because surely not 100% of all examples have been submitted to CAC.)  

    The current listed CAC prices are $1580 and $2880 for ms63 and ms64, respectively.  Here are the auction records for CAC specimens I could find:

    Nov 2013 ngc ms64+ $3290 HA (ex. Newman)
    Jan 2017 pcgs ms64 $4465 HA
    Jan 2019 pcgs ms63 $3797 GC
    Dec 2021 pcgs ms63 $2280 HA (rattler)

    I also note this sale:
    Aug 2020 pcgs au58+ $2640 SBG 

    So, a coin with (a) a very low CAC pop in mint state vs total pops, (b) very limited auction sales data, (c) and 2 sales pre-pandemic > $3200 suggest to me that the price guide may need significant upward revision.  The fact that only a single ms63 has been beaned and resides in a rattler and recently sold for >$2200 while the one auction sale for the au58+ at $2640 indicates healthy price demand for these CAC approved examples.

    Please forgive any omissions of relevant data or errors in interpretation.  I look forward to your thoughts on this example. 



    Thank you for pointing this out. I have reviewed the 1843 and updated pricing in the higher grades.
  • Thank you for taking a look at the auction data and adjusting the values for ms63 and ms64!  Next question:  how much “value” (if any) does your pricing place on the following:

    1.  Pcgs vs ngc 
    2.  Rattler/Fatty vs modern holder
    3.  Die marriages 

    The last category is a subject of curiosity and fascination.  A number of the societies to which I belong devote much time and attention to die marriages.  I’m wondering whether the market reflects these “marriages” especially for CAC coins.  I have not seen much discussion about this topic yet in this blogosphere. Do dealers mark up prices for unique die marriages?  Do dealers even care?  
  • Thank you for taking a look at the auction data and adjusting the values for ms63 and ms64!  Next question:  how much “value” (if any) does your pricing place on the following:

    1.  Pcgs vs ngc 
    2.  Rattler/Fatty vs modern holder
    3.  Die marriages 

    The last category is a subject of curiosity and fascination.  A number of the societies to which I belong devote much time and attention to die marriages.  I’m wondering whether the market reflects these “marriages” especially for CAC coins.  I have not seen much discussion about this topic yet in this blogosphere. Do dealers mark up prices for unique die marriages?  Do dealers even care?  
    1. None
    2. None
    3. None

    We don't distinguish between pricing outliers (i.e. PQ coins, old holders, or even die marriages).  If we did we'd have to compute 3x or more prices for every coin in every grade. What we try to do is give a value for a theoretical "typical" quality coin for the grade. Other variables like old holder, or even + coins, need to be interpreted by the buyer.  
  • This greatly helps interpret the prices in the CAC guide.  Thanks much for the insight. 
  • edited December 2021
    John F. I have always been curious as to the growing price difference between the 1921 and 1921-D walker in PCGS/CAC MS-66 grades. 

    is this a demand factor as the supply factor of CAC stickered MS-66 by CAC remain at 1 for each for many years whereas PCGS has graded 4 1921 and 3 1921-D which has not changed in many years as well? 

    Your opinion is appreciated. 
  • This greatly helps interpret the prices in the CAC guide.  Thanks much for the insight. 
    My pleasure to contribute to the conversation.
  • oreville said:
    John F. I have always been curious as to the growing price difference between the 1921 and 1921-D walker in PCGS/CAC MS-66 grades. 

    is this a demand factor as the supply factor of CAC stickered MS-66 by CAC remain at 1 for each for many years whereas PCGS has graded 4 1921 and 3 1921-D which has not changed in many years as well? 

    Your opinion is appreciated. 
    Great question. The only 1921 PCGS/CAC MS66 sold for $54,000 in 8/2015 (Heritage).
    The only 1921-D PCGS/CAC MS66 has sold twice: $94,000 in 8/15; then again for $164,000 in 1/18. 

    1921-D's tend to be scarcer and more desirable (IMO) than 1921-P's.

    In MS65 these are almost double value for CAC, which directly reflects APR's which, incidentally, track closely to pop data. I don't usually track pop data when pricing. I prefer to let the free market sort it out. You never know when coins have been cracked out, etc. 

    Without new sales we hadn't reviewed 1921-P's in a while so I reviewed them and made some adjustment. I do think, for the record, that $164,000 is a bit strong but... maybe we'll see if another example (of the same one) ever comes back on the market.

    John 
  • John F:

    I bought (in 1997) the Jack Lee 1921 walker in OGH PCGS/CAC MS-66 which I liked the most of all his early walkers and consider it to be far superior to the GBW/ Eric Lane walker of the same PCGS/CAC MS-66 grade.

    Interesting when I looked up the CAC lookup on the 1921 MS-66 walkers CAC stated that the GBW/Eric Lane 1921 walker  you referenced as being sold at Heritage in 2015 is "no longer active at PCGS and is not included in CAC Pop report."

    Several additional questions which arise due to this CAC comment. 

    First, why would anyone want to deactivate a PCGS grade standing in their grading report which has nothing to do with their registry report? 

    Second, what does "no longer active at PCGS" mean exactly? 

    Third, I do not recall CAC ever raised their pop report from 1 to 2 and then back to 1 on this walker. What happened?

    As an aside, I have never taken the Jack Lee 1921 walker out of my bank vault since 1997 except to CAC for their positive review in 2008 and to a fellow walker collector at the monthly Sunday Parsippany NJ coin show about 7 years ago.


  • oreville said:
    John F:

    I bought (in 1997) the Jack Lee 1921 walker in OGH PCGS/CAC MS-66 which I liked the most of all his early walkers and consider it to be far superior to the GBW/ Eric Lane walker of the same PCGS/CAC MS-66 grade.

    Interesting when I looked up the CAC lookup on the 1921 MS-66 walkers CAC stated that the GBW/Eric Lane 1921 walker  you referenced as being sold at Heritage in 2015 is "no longer active at PCGS and is not included in CAC Pop report."

    Several additional questions which arise due to this CAC comment. 

    First, why would anyone want to deactivate a PCGS grade standing in their grading report which has nothing to do with their registry report? 

    Second, what does "no longer active at PCGS" mean exactly? 

    Third, I do not recall CAC ever raised their pop report from 1 to 2 and then back to 1 on this walker. What happened?

    As an aside, I have never taken the Jack Lee 1921 walker out of my bank vault since 1997 except to CAC for their positive review in 2008 and to a fellow walker collector at the monthly Sunday Parsippany NJ coin show about 7 years ago.


    Oreville, Sorry to say I can't answer any of your questions regarding the pop changes. Those are questions for the folks at PCGS and CAC... I'm sure that Jack Lee 1921 is an amazing coin. He was a dear friend of mine... 
  • Agreed.. Jack Lee was a true collector. I was also a fan of your Dad as well. 
  • @oreville

    What a cool coin to own!
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