Here is an expensive coin which CAC rejected, but I bought it any way — Welcome to the CAC Educational Forum

Here is an expensive coin which CAC rejected, but I bought it any way

edited September 2022 in Grading
I have moved away from U.S. coins in recent years, but I can be drawn to them when I really like the eye appeal. I spotted this piece at the Summer FUN Show and bought it a month and a half later. It is a 1795 Overton 120 half dollar. It is the finest known example, by a wide margin, for a rare variety of which there are less than 20 know. The second finest known is an EF sharpness piece that has been cleaned and the third finest known pieces are a couple of VF-30s.

I have not been able to get a great picture of this piece. Here are the pictures furnished by the dealer.




And here are my "off center" less than perfect efforts.




This coin was last sold at auction by Heritage in 2015. It was an NGC MS-62 holder at that time. Now it's in a PCGS AU-58 holder. The dealer told me that CAC rejected it.

Why did I buy it? It has a sharp strike and great eye appeal for the type. I can understand why CAC rejected it, but I don't agree. I imagine that the fields were a little too dull for the CAC graders.

The obverse die failed rather quickly for this variety. There is a die crack though the "7" in the date which quickly became worse.

Here are photos from 2015 when Heritage sold it.





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Comments

  • Wow, that is an impressive addition to your collection. Congrats and thanks for sharing it here.
  • Like the look of the coin. I think the marks on the cheek are a possible reason it didn't sticker but regardless, from the photos I like the toning.
  • Sometimes even if a bean coin for the variety exists, good luck finding one for sale. 
  • That is an amazing coin and a real treasure to view, even in photos.  Thank you for sharing. 
  • Beautiful coin! Seems much more accurately graded in the PCGS holder.
  • Nice 1795 silver dollar. To me the only quibble I could possibly have with this coin is I would conservatively grade it AU-55 based on photos only. But I realize that I am going by older grading standards.
  • I would send it back to NGC with a picture of it in their MS62 holder. Assuming that it has not since been doctored/damaged, it should be regraded MS62. An NGC MS62 is worth considerably more than a PCGS AU58.

    And who has said that you should give up on a desirable coin just because CAC considers it low-end for the grade?
  • Could be CAC just thought it should be a grade lower. I have one old historic coin that NGC graded XF40 and it didn't CAC. But the same coin in a PCGS VF35 got a sticker. I don't really have an issue with that.
  • Could be CAC just thought it should be a grade lower. I have one old historic coin that NGC graded XF40 and it didn't CAC. But the same coin in a PCGS VF35 got a sticker. I don't really have an issue with that.

    NGC graded it MS62. I doubt that CAC thought it even lower than PCGS's AU58.
  • CAC's issue probably has to do with the fields which they thought should have more luster. If the Overton number and status as the finest known, by a wide margin, for a rare variety matter, it should not be of concern to a collector who wants the best examples of the early half dollar die varieties.

    It does not matter to me because the coin has design details in a areas, like the top of Ms. Liberty head, which seldom show on these coins. That, combined with the original color and considerable amount of luster visible within the devices sold the coin to me. When I was younger, I saw pieces with equal amounts of detail with asking prices that were not much different from what I paid for this one.

    Here is the coin it replaced in my type set. This one is graded EF-45.



  • BillJones said:

    CAC's issue probably has to do with the fields which they thought should have more luster. If the Overton number and status as the finest known, by a wide margin, for a rare variety matter, it should not be of concern to a collector who wants the best examples of the early half dollar die varieties.

    It does not matter to me because the coin has design details in a areas, like the top of Ms. Liberty head, which seldom show on these coins. That, combined with the original color and considerable amount of luster visible within the devices sold the coin to me. When I was younger, I saw pieces with equal amounts of detail with asking prices that were not much different from what I paid for this one.

    Here is the coin it replaced in my type set. This one is graded EF-45.



    Certain Ebay sellers would clean it and sell it as Superb Gem BU! Peruse Ebay for similarly over-graded Bust halves.
  • I have some Mint State graded Flowing Hair Half Dollars that had ugly spots on them. There's an excellent chance that those coins were dipped or cleaned and went in for an upgrade.

    Many years ago, I had a 1796 No Stars Quarter Eagle on consignment from another dealer. I advised my best customer to buy it because it was an excellent "put away coin." He passed. It was in an NGC AU-50 holder, and the coin was original an PQ for the grade. Here is a photo.



    Subsequently the dealer who had consigned it to me sold it. A year or so later he had the coin again, except this time it looked like this.



    The dealer confirmed my observation that it was the same coin. It had been cracked out and "treated." And what was the reward for the crack-out and coin doctor work? It went from an NGC AU-50 to a PCGS AU-58. That upgrade is worth tens of thousands for coins like this.





  • Bill, could you explain what "treatment" like that entails? The coin looked nicer to my eye pre-"treatment" but the grade has improved. It appears to have gained a few small scratches but maybe it is just the quality of the images.
  • Bill, could you explain what "treatment" like that entails? The coin looked nicer to my eye pre-"treatment" but the grade has improved. It appears to have gained a few small scratches but maybe it is just the quality of the images.
    I agree with you and have the exact same questions about the coin.
  • edited October 2022
    The piece was brushed to give it more "luster" which to some people means a higher grade. The piece was brighter, but the surfaces picked up an lot of marks in the process. Gold is very soft, and it does not take much to mark it. An old gold coin like this does not "tarnish" unless it develops copper stains. Gold is "a noble metal" and reacts to very few chemicals. What it can get, over many years, is a thin film on the surface, which can mute the luster.

    Frankly I have no I idea what positive things the graders saw when they give that coin the AU-58 grade.
  • Was so nice in the 50 holder.  Thanks for sharing the informative tale. 
  • Thanks for the reply, Bill.
  • oreville said:

    Nice 1795 silver dollar. To me the only quibble I could possibly have with this coin is I would conservatively grade it AU-55 based on photos only. But I realize that I am going by older grading standards.

    While I agree will Bill's reasons for buying the coin it is not MS and IMO not Choice AU-58 either.
    CACfan said:

    I would send it back to NGC with a picture of it in their MS62 holder. Assuming that it has not since been doctored/damaged, it should be regraded MS62. An NGC MS62 is worth considerably more than a PCGS AU58.

    And who has said that you should give up on a desirable coin just because CAC considers it low-end for the grade?

    If NGC puts that back into any MS holder I'd LOL. NO CHANCE! This is an excellent example of a coin they are EXTREMLY GLAD that some "Ex-Pert" decided to crack out and try to get a higher grade or cross-over. LOL!
    This AU is still over graded as a 58. I'll even bet some researcher can find this was once auctioned as an XF.

    Bill, Nice big upgrade. I've seen some of the coins you have posted in the past. You must have a wonderful Type Set. ;)
  • Insider3 said:

    oreville said:

    Nice 1795 silver dollar. To me the only quibble I could possibly have with this coin is I would conservatively grade it AU-55 based on photos only. But I realize that I am going by older grading standards.

    While I agree will Bill's reasons for buying the coin it is not MS and IMO not Choice AU-58 either.
    CACfan said:

    I would send it back to NGC with a picture of it in their MS62 holder. Assuming that it has not since been doctored/damaged, it should be regraded MS62. An NGC MS62 is worth considerably more than a PCGS AU58.

    And who has said that you should give up on a desirable coin just because CAC considers it low-end for the grade?

    If NGC puts that back into any MS holder I'd LOL. NO CHANCE! This is an excellent example of a coin they are EXTREMLY GLAD that some "Ex-Pert" decided to crack out and try to get a higher grade or cross-over. LOL!
    This AU is still over graded as a 58. I'll even bet some researcher can find this was once auctioned as an XF.

    Bill, Nice big upgrade. I've seen some of the coins you have posted in the past. You must have a wonderful Type Set. ;)
    Interesting. I have sent ex-NGC coins back to NGC with photos of their old slabs and gotten the same grades even though they looked over-graded to me.
  • CACfan said:

    Insider3 said:

    oreville said:

    Nice 1795 silver dollar. To me the only quibble I could possibly have with this coin is I would conservatively grade it AU-55 based on photos only. But I realize that I am going by older grading standards.

    While I agree will Bill's reasons for buying the coin it is not MS and IMO not Choice AU-58 either.
    CACfan said:

    I would send it back to NGC with a picture of it in their MS62 holder. Assuming that it has not since been doctored/damaged, it should be regraded MS62. An NGC MS62 is worth considerably more than a PCGS AU58.

    And who has said that you should give up on a desirable coin just because CAC considers it low-end for the grade?

    If NGC puts that back into any MS holder I'd LOL. NO CHANCE! This is an excellent example of a coin they are EXTREMLY GLAD that some "Ex-Pert" decided to crack out and try to get a higher grade or cross-over. LOL!
    This AU is still over graded as a 58. I'll even bet some researcher can find this was once auctioned as an XF.

    Bill, Nice big upgrade. I've seen some of the coins you have posted in the past. You must have a wonderful Type Set. ;)
    Interesting. I have sent ex-NGC coins back to NGC with photos of their old slabs and gotten the same grades even though they looked over-graded to me.
    That happens because no TPGS wishes to admit it goofed! At one place I worked I was doing the QC on a coin sent in for reconsideration. It was straight graded as an MS-64. Unfortunately the coin had a practically complete circular gouge from a rolling machine next to the rim and damaging some letters. When I said we cannot sent this back without admitting we messed up, I was told it was a '64. But...It's a 64, Ah, Ok. I'll bet this kind of thing still happens.
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