Setting aside crack heads, exactly how many raw non-AT coins at decent grade levels are still out there to holder? Will those of use who hold CAC stickered coins in our collections have any incentive to cross over? What would they be? I guess we will need to wait to see how this market plays out. I, for one, feel that the most significant aspect of the announcement is the intent to publish and publicize grading sets. That will foster transparency that is lacking from the current slab grading systems. It should also empower us to be better evaluators of our own coins.
Sorry, one more. So let’s say 85% of a series has not been beaned. Let’s say 1/4 were due to obvious problems (AT, etc) which means JA would never sticker them even if the grade were dropped from ms65 to Au58. That theoretically leaves a sizable quantity of so-called C coins. Here’s a prediction: Everyone (and I mean everyone) holding those C slabs will, starting on January 1, 2023, ship them to VA Beach for CAC holdering. What does that mean? The population numbers in the CAC Price Guide will EXPLODE. Good bye marketing based on “only 15 have been certified by CAC.” Problem?
I recommended designation A, B & C along with the grade; however, some feel that we don’t need more sub-grades. John and his team are some of the best in the business and will certainly sort all this out.
Sorry, one more. So let’s say 85% of a series has not been beaned. Let’s say 1/4 were due to obvious problems (AT, etc) which means JA would never sticker them even if the grade were dropped from ms65 to Au58. That theoretically leaves a sizable quantity of so-called C coins. Here’s a prediction: Everyone (and I mean everyone) holding those C slabs will, starting on January 1, 2023, ship them to VA Beach for CAC holdering. What does that mean? The population numbers in the CAC Price Guide will EXPLODE. Good bye marketing based on “only 15 have been certified by CAC.” Problem?
yes, i see this as a problem too
the collectors who are not cac members (or somehow in the know outside of the cac forum) will not understand what cac populations actually represent until enough time goes by to sort out the chaos in the market place .. it could lead to an interesting fluctation that certain people may try to "game this situation to their advantage" .. it's interesting to consider how this can be modeled carefully to prevent a bad outcome for the good people who we will call "the victims"
I recommended designation A, B & C along with the grade; however, some feel that we don’t need more sub-grades. John and his team are some of the best in the business and will certainly sort all this out.
I agree with Larry. But with a big caution as stated below.
I happen to believe that even JA is conflicted on allowing + grades as he previously stated that he preferred to ignore + grades as well as repeating his opinion that there are too many grades in his more recent interview with JF. Allowing a + grade or An A, B and C grade will further increase the number of grades.
On the other hand, not grading a C coin at all would be tantamount to punishing such coin when it is of higher quality than the 64A or 64+ stickered coin. But that is how CAC kept its population count down which makes CAC more exclusive.
This needs to be thought through and will take time. Otherwise, the population counts between CAC stickered vs CAC grading will vastly differ causing explosion of CAC slabbed coins but not CAC stickered coins which will dilute the perceived value of the CAC graded vs the CAC stickered coins.
It is not an easy problem to solve. It may not even be solveable.
LarryC said: Could the CAC+ become the new “Gold” bean status to a certain degree?
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As far as I've seen to this point, the + is the only differentiator that JA has confirmed for the new CAC holders, signifying A coins and perhaps a few very nice B's, so if that holds you may very well be right. Or if not a gold, at least a super green.
For that reason alone many will submit to CAC. I have many stickered early holders so I will leave those alone; however, I will be sending in some NGC stickered coins and a few PCGS as well to see if I’m more in the A or B camp.
i can now officially say that i have a good reason not to sleep
Or simply do what myself and a few other friends ( high end collectors ) will be doing .
Trust JA and the process. Its all going to work out.
As of lately I’ve been in awe of JA’s energetic involvement . Its almost Trump like! 😎😉
He has been super attentive to everyone’s ideas and concerns. There is a lot of work to be done . But it’ll get there and JA’s primary concern is protecting us from losses etc .
It won't matter if you put a 65- or 64+ to cac collectors who understand what the +/- mean we will take those as c coins and not be interested. Those coins would be tainted the same as posting a list of failed cac coins. I already won't buy non sticker coins from certain dealers because I know they've been.
Sorry, one more. So let’s say 85% of a series has not been beaned. Let’s say 1/4 were due to obvious problems (AT, etc) which means JA would never sticker them even if the grade were dropped from ms65 to Au58. That theoretically leaves a sizable quantity of so-called C coins. Here’s a prediction: Everyone (and I mean everyone) holding those C slabs will, starting on January 1, 2023, ship them to VA Beach for CAC holdering. What does that mean? The population numbers in the CAC Price Guide will EXPLODE. Good bye marketing based on “only 15 have been certified by CAC.” Problem?
This is a nightmare scenario. And if it happens I’d expect cac stickers to be in even higher demand vs a cac slab.
Sharp Strike. Great question! The ms65-C Saint Gaudens $20 that will reside in the New Cac holder as a 64+ will be consistent in grade with the current Cac ma64 and 64+ stickered coins - this will avoid confusion. Many of today’s Cac ms64 stickered Saints are a match to what we see in ma65 non Cac holders today. JA
Good morning Seated Nut. This “nightmare scenario “ has been playing out for years. Many coins are currently being downgraded to earn a sticker - we see this on a daily basis. JA
Good morning Seated Nut. This “nightmare scenario “ has been playing out for years. Many coins are currently being downgraded to earn a sticker - we see this on a daily basis. JA
JA, I agree that some have cracked out hoping for the lesser grade and many have crossed NGC coins hoping for the lower grade, in hopes of earning a CAC sticker. But those are other grading companies that people are cracking and crossing. I don’t think that’s what you want to happen to CAC slabs.
I guess the nightmare would be if CAC accepts some sort of market acceptable grading. The other grading companies have done this which as I understand it, is the whole reason CAC exist. As long as CACs grading standards remain the same. I don’t believe there will be any dilution of market respect.
As a CAC only collector ideally there should be no difference between a CAC stickered coin and a CAC slabbed coin. Is this the intent? Will there be a separate CAC pop for stickers and cac slabs?
Sharp Strike. Great question! The ms65-C Saint Gaudens $20 that will reside in the New Cac holder as a 64+ will be consistent in grade with the current Cac ma64 and 64+ stickered coins - this will avoid confusion. Many of today’s Cac ms64 stickered Saints are a match to what we see in ma65 non Cac holders today. JA
I feel this nut-shells the no problem C question and is a well thought out response. Thanks to JA for that!
So for those of us that have a number of failed CAC coins, the chances of getting those crossed at grade is extremely remote. This fact, alone, will greatly reduce the number of crossover submissions, even though many of us will still prefer the 64+ CAC over the failed 65.
And, for the already stickered coins, it will be similar to the current restickering process, just a whole lot more cracked plastic at CAC 😉
What I haven't seen addressed (or maybe missed in the throng) is the incentive for a CAC slab for a coin that hasn't been anywhere before.
While I've been reading all these "strategy" concerns re: finessing an already slabbed coin into whatever a more advantageous "pricing" element might be garnered, I've yet to see the varied reasons for starting with a CAC slab.
My initial entry into slabbing in general was for AUTHENTICITY. From there, the rest gets into almost minutiae.
What I haven't seen addressed (or maybe missed in the throng) is the incentive for a CAC slab for a coin that hasn't been anywhere before.
While I've been reading all these "strategy" concerns re: finessing an already slabbed coin into whatever a more advantageous "pricing" element might be garnered, I've yet to see the varied reasons for starting with a CAC slab.
My initial entry into slabbing in general was for AUTHENTICITY. From there, the rest gets into almost minutiae.
My sense is the incentive to have a CAC holder of raw coins (besides protecting them from mishandling, etc.) is not only to authenticate, but to also have it in a holder that is straight graded, AND properly graded in the opinion of CAC! That has value!
Comments
the collectors who are not cac members (or somehow in the know outside of the cac forum) will not understand what cac populations actually represent until enough time goes by to sort out the chaos in the market place .. it could lead to an interesting fluctation that certain people may try to "game this situation to their advantage" .. it's interesting to consider how this can be modeled carefully to prevent a bad outcome for the good people who we will call "the victims"
thank you so much!
I happen to believe that even JA is conflicted on allowing + grades as he previously stated that he preferred to ignore + grades as well as repeating his opinion that there are too many grades in his more recent interview with JF. Allowing a + grade or An A, B and C grade will further increase the number of grades.
On the other hand, not grading a C coin at all would be tantamount to punishing such coin when it is of higher quality than the 64A or 64+ stickered coin. But that is how CAC kept its population count down which makes CAC more exclusive.
This needs to be thought through and will take time. Otherwise, the population counts between CAC stickered vs CAC grading will vastly differ causing explosion of CAC slabbed coins but not CAC stickered coins which will dilute the perceived value of the CAC graded vs the CAC stickered coins.
It is not an easy problem to solve. It may not even be solveable.
Could the CAC+ become the new “Gold” bean status to a certain degree?
----------
As far as I've seen to this point, the + is the only differentiator that JA has confirmed for the new CAC holders, signifying A coins and perhaps a few very nice B's, so if that holds you may very well be right. Or if not a gold, at least a super green.
Trust JA and the process. Its all going to work out.
As of lately I’ve been in awe of JA’s energetic involvement . Its almost Trump like! 😎😉
He has been super attentive to everyone’s ideas and concerns. There is a lot of work to be done . But it’ll get there and JA’s primary concern is protecting us from losses etc .
We’re in good hands .
I already won't buy non sticker coins from certain dealers because I know they've been.
I guess the nightmare would be if CAC accepts some sort of market acceptable grading. The other grading companies have done this which as I understand it, is the whole reason CAC exist. As long as CACs grading standards remain the same. I don’t believe there will be any dilution of market respect.
As a CAC only collector ideally there should be no difference between a CAC stickered coin and a CAC slabbed coin. Is this the intent? Will there be a separate CAC pop for stickers and cac slabs?
While I've been reading all these "strategy" concerns re: finessing an already slabbed coin into whatever a more advantageous "pricing" element might be garnered, I've yet to see the varied reasons for starting with a CAC slab.
My initial entry into slabbing in general was for AUTHENTICITY.
From there, the rest gets into almost minutiae.
Steve