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PCGS (+) coins falling short for CACG (+)

What happens when collectors and dealers attempt to cross their high grade PCGS CAC (+) coins but they fall short for CACG+ ? These would be the B coins and the vast majority of green beans.

It appears to me that (B) coin owners will have the choice of keeping their coins in the original PCGS CAC (+) holders? Or opt for the new CACG holder without a plus?

This leaves little doubt that CACG (+) coins will be more prestigious than PCGS CAC (+) coins.
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Comments

  • The flip side is a lot of PCGS non-plus coins could end up in CACG plus holders. PCGS and CAC have different grading standards, so it's not clear yet if CACG plus coins will be more prestigious than PCGS CAC plus coins. We know that's true because the existent of gold stickers today. These are coins that CAC thinks are undergraded by PCGS.
  • What happens when collectors and dealers attempt to cross their high grade PCGS CAC (+) coins but they fall short for CACG+ ? These would be the B coins and the vast majority of green beans.

    It appears to me that (B) coin owners will have the choice of keeping their coins in the original PCGS CAC (+) holders? Or opt for the new CACG holder without a plus?

    This leaves little doubt that CACG (+) coins will be more prestigious than PCGS CAC (+) coins.

    Everyone wants to get their coins into their ultimate slabs, so multiple submissions may be required to determine which service is the most liberal for a particular coin.

    I suspect that you are underestimating the demand for PCGS CAC coins versus identically graded CAC 2.0 specimens. PCGS is a behemoth that has been heavily marketing their product for 36 years versus merely 15 for CAC. Thus, the values for PCGS CAC (or even nice non-CAC) coins and CAC 2.0 pieces will likely be neck and neck, CAC 2.0's expected prestige notwithstanding.
  • CACfan said:



    Everyone wants to get their coins into their ultimate slabs, so multiple submissions may be required to determine which service is the most liberal for a particular coin.

    I suspect that you are underestimating the demand for PCGS CAC coins versus identically graded CAC 2.0 specimens. PCGS is a behemoth that has been heavily marketing their product for 36 years versus merely 15 for CAC. Thus, the values for PCGS CAC (or even nice non-CAC) coins and CAC 2.0 pieces will likely be neck and neck, CAC 2.0's expected prestige notwithstanding.

    I agree with you.
  • CACfan I am not underestimating demand for PCGS CAC coins. However I believe that CACG + coins will have more value than PCGS CAC + coins.

    CAC does not acknowledge PCGS +, and only a small percentage of these coins will ultimately make the grade as true (A) coins.

    Bottom line is that all CACG + coins will be regarded as (A) coins. While the majority of PCGS CAC + coins are (B) coins.
  • CACfan I am not underestimating demand for PCGS CAC coins. However I believe that CACG + coins will have more value than PCGS CAC + coins.

    CAC does not acknowledge PCGS +, and only a small percentage of these coins will ultimately make the grade as true (A) coins.

    Bottom line is that all CACG + coins will be regarded as (A) coins. While the majority of PCGS CAC + coins are (B) coins.

    I don't think that's a foregone conclusion. Right now, PCGS+ CAC coins are regarded as the most desirable combination (a high end opinion from PCGS and a solid or high-end opinion from CAC). A lot of people are not going to want to give up the dual opinion for one (albeit highly respected) opinion. Also, unless PCGS does something drastic with their registry, I would imagine it is very unlikely participants with highly ranked sets in the PCGS registry will cross their coins from PCGS+ CAC to a CAC holder.
  • Frank_Kate I agree with you PCGS + CAC is the most valued combination right now. But looking forward 80% of these coins will make the grade for CACG +. (A) coins are the cream of the crop, bordering on the next grade level. 
  • edited October 2022

    Frank_Kate I agree with you PCGS + CAC is the most valued combination right now. But looking forward 80% of these coins will make the grade for CACG +. (A) coins are the cream of the crop, bordering on the next grade level. 

    I guess what I'm saying is many of the PCGS+ CAC sticker owners may not WANT their coin in the CACG+ holder for a variety of reasons (not least of which is the PCGS registry) so I am unconvinced it will be only the PCGS+ CAC sticker coins that couldn't receive a + at CACG that will be left over. 80% sounds very high but I guess time will tell.
  • I am confused why a PCGS+ coin (not previously submitted to CAC and received a Green designation) convinces anyone one way or another.

    Maybe it is me, because understanding the opening post by Chris Adkins, compared to the last post by Frank Kate is not clear, when compared. I am not certain about the Registry issue, but it seems to me if CAC is going to have an improved Registry, it makes more sense than leaving it in another registry with the question always mentally lingering: is it or isn't it?
  • john said:

    I am confused why a PCGS+ coin (not previously submitted to CAC and received a Green designation) convinces anyone one way or another.

    Maybe it is me, because understanding the opening post by Chris Adkins, compared to the last post by Frank Kate is not clear, when compared. I am not certain about the Registry issue, but it seems to me if CAC is going to have an improved Registry, it makes more sense than leaving it in another registry with the question always mentally lingering: is it or isn't it?

    I edited my comment to hopefully clarify my position. I understood Chris to mean eventually many (most?) of the PCGS+ CAC stickered coins will try to cross over to CACG+ and the B coins would be rejected (not receive a +), so the remaining population of PCGS+ CAC stickered coins will be assumed to be of lower quality than CACG+ coins. My prediction is the owners of the PCGS+ CAC stickered coins will not attempt to cross to CACG+ in large enough numbers to assume anything about the remaining population.
  • Thank you. I think human nature (read $ and market preference) will be the predictor, and I don't think owners are going to be very adamant about the PCGS Registry, in light of the improvements that are coming via the CAC Registry Model ( because of the same human nature I stated).
  • Frank_Kate Because the overwhelming majority of high grade PCGS + coins have already been submitted to CAC and without a green bean they are not solid for the grade, only in the opinion of PCGS. 

    The CACG + coins are going to be rare!
  • In @JACAC's latest interview, he said:

    "John: Well, as a plus, no, we won’t guarantee it across as a plus, because we’ve always disregarded the pluses. It wouldn’t be consistent. It wouldn’t make any sense for us to say– Quite honestly, when I see a coin with a plus on it, I disregard it. I just grade it as though it’s solid for grading. I think many of them are pluses. However, I don’t believe all of them are pluses. And contrary to that, I see a lot of coins, I think, that deserve pluses that don’t have pluses."

    https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/cac/a-cac-grading-service-coinweek-interview-with-john-albanese/

    So inconclusive right now whether CACG+ is going to be more prestigious than PCGS+ CAC. People will try to cross PCGS CAC to CACG+ and likely leave PCGS+ CAC alone. Time will tell.
  • In @JACAC's latest interview, he said:

    "John: Well, as a plus, no, we won’t guarantee it across as a plus, because we’ve always disregarded the pluses. It wouldn’t be consistent. It wouldn’t make any sense for us to say– Quite honestly, when I see a coin with a plus on it, I disregard it. I just grade it as though it’s solid for grading. I think many of them are pluses. However, I don’t believe all of them are pluses. And contrary to that, I see a lot of coins, I think, that deserve pluses that don’t have pluses."

    https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/cac/a-cac-grading-service-coinweek-interview-with-john-albanese/

    So inconclusive right now whether CACG+ is going to be more prestigious than PCGS+ CAC. People will try to cross PCGS CAC to CACG+ and likely leave PCGS+ CAC alone. Time will tell.

    As I mentioned, The Market will decide. As it should be, and is.
  • I am confused why a PCGS+ coin (not previously submitted to CAC and received a Green designation) convinces anyone one way or another. Maybe it is me, because understanding the opening post by Chris Adkins, compared to the last post by Frank Kate is not clear, when compared. I am not certain about the Registry issue, but it seems to me if CAC is going to have an improved Registry, it makes more sense than leaving it in another registry with the question always mentally lingering: is it or isn't it?
    I edited my comment to hopefully clarify my position. I understood Chris to mean eventually many (most?) of the PCGS+ CAC stickered coins will try to cross over to CACG+ and the B coins would be rejected (not receive a +), so the remaining population of PCGS+ CAC stickered coins will be assumed to be of lower quality than CACG+ coins. My prediction is the owners of the PCGS+ CAC stickered coins will not attempt to cross to CACG+ in large enough numbers to assume anything about the remaining population.


     Hi Frank ,

     It’s a bit late and I have not read all the posts in this thread .   With that said I must say that in my opinion CACG+ coins will have more prestige and value then PCGS + CAC coins period.    I am in complete alignment with the thoughts of member Chrisatkins1 on this matter.      

     I’ll go back later this morning and read the posts over again.   Not sure if you agree with Chris and I on this .
  • edited October 2022
    There are at least four key faults to the logic in the OP, some of which have been mentioned:

    1. Don’t underestimate the popularity of the PCGS Registry. While every coin of mine (all PCGS) eligible for a CAC sticker has one, and roughly 50% to 60% have a plus grade along with the CAC sticker, I have no plans to cross ANY of my coins to the new CAC holders until the PCGS Registry accepts CAC holders. Knowing PCGS won’t accept NGC holders implies to me they won’t quickly accept CAC holders either. So leaving my coins in their PCGS holders allows me to partake in ALL four Registries - a) PCGS, b) the new CAC Registry for any holders with or without CAC stickers (and that CAC Registry WILL credit that PCGS plus grade), c) the new CAC registry restricted to only CAC holdered coins AND PCGS and NGC coins with CAC stickers (and again, that restricted CAC Registry will also credit that plus grade in its PCGS holder), and d) a Registry operated by NGC (they accept PCGS coins and give extra points for those with CAC’s and extra points for those with pluses).

    2. Because CAC will downgrade many C coins submitted for crossover to a plus grade in the next lower grade, along with similar coins submitted raw or cracked out that CAC deems as C for the higher grade will now also often get a plus in the next grade lower, the percentage of plus pops of CAC graded coins will soon tremendously dwarf the percentage of PCGS coins with a plus. That can only help CAC stickered coins with pluses that remain in their PCGS holders. When you look at CAC holder pops and a very large percentage are pluses, do you really think the market will value those higher than PCGS coins with a CAC sticker and a plus grade (very low percentage with that plus grade)?

    3. As noted, MANY coins in CAC holders with pluses will have gotten that way from downgrades as C coins or as noted in #2, from raw/cracked out that would have been C coins but will now have a plus. ALL of these will NOT have the embedded CAC sticker on the reverse. As such, once again, do you really think that a coin in a CAC holder with a plus grade but without the embedded sticker will be valued more (or even as high) as a PCGS plus coin with a CAC sticker (and as noted, this plus coin is part of only a very low percentage of PCGS coins making that plus grade)?

    4. In a follow up comment by @ChrisAtkins1 shortly below his OP, he said he believes that only a small percentage of PCGS plus coins will be deemed by CAC grading as A coins, and hence not be given a plus grade by CAC. I disagree! Of the low percentage of PCGS coins with a plus grade, MANY if not most of those have CAC stickers too. JA has already said in another thread that he expects that most coins currently with plus grades and stickers WILL INDEED cross to CAC in a plus grade! Additionally, of those with PCGS holders with a plus grade and sticker, if they choose to cross, chances are the vast majority will request on the CAC submission form to ONLY cross at the same grade or higher!



    Steve
  • I don’t think it’s a given that most C coins will be the next grade lower with a plus. When you think of all the CAC coins out there without pluses, those coins didn’t just miss the next grade yet they are at least solid for the grade per CAC. I have to believe that many C coins will be solid for the next lower grade but not high end. 
  • edited October 2022
    @LarryC , JA has already said in another thread that MOST C coins that are defect free will indeed have a plus in the next lower grade, but some will go to the next lower grade without the plus! (If I could underline the two words I have in bold, I would).
  • edited October 2022
    My friend @Vincent.Savage , yes, what in the world are we doing up at this ungodly hour on the east coast?

    Regarding your comment, please read my four points just below your post, my point just above this post, and my point in two posts down, and then let us know if you still agree that strongly with the OP.

    Steve
  • Steve I made reference to “high grade” coins. For example Saints in 67, there are zero CAC 68’s and nobody is going to give up that lofty grade. Just watch the CACG pop in 67+ over time, it will be minuscule, but highly valuable. 

    Even with mid grade coins many owners may want to keep a gem 65 then drop down to a 64+. So I don’t see those pops “tremendously dwarfing” the pop of PCGS coins with a plus. 
  • edited October 2022

    Steve I made reference to “high grade” coins. For example Saints in 67, there are zero CAC 68’s and nobody is going to give up that lofty grade. Just watch the CACG pop in 67+ over time, it will be minuscule, but highly valuable. 


    Even with mid grade coins many owners may want to keep a gem 65 than drop down to a 64+. So I don’t see those pops “tremendously dwarfing” the pop of PCGS coins with a plus. 
    We disagree, but time will tell. 😉

    There will be three separate sources of + graded coins in CAC holders:

    As I noted above, many coins with plus grades with stickers will cross to plus grades at CAC, AND some coins in whole grades with stickers that are A coins will also get pluses, AND coins where the owners of defect free C coins who do choose to downgrade to get in a CAC holder with a likely plus (remember that these C coins currently have no CAC sticker) as per JA will also mostly get plus grades. Please add all three together.

    Those that know me know that I’m a TREMENDOUS fan of CAC, probably even a bigger fan than @CACfan. An unnamed contributor to this forum suggested I change my forum name to BiggerCACfan, lol.

    I really do think that the values of my PCGS/CAC/Plus coins will do OK remaining as is. And if by chance I’m wrong (I’ve made more than my fair share of errors), I can choose to cross later on to CACG at the same grades or higher.

    Steve
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