Red Dots

EASilver

In reading the "C coin" thread, I got the impression that coins that should be in details holders received a Red Dot from JA. Is this standard procedure for any non-problem-free coin submitted? Can I assume that any coin returned without a CAC sticker, and without a red dot, is merely overgraded (or low end)?

My focus here is early circulated (EF and below) silver coins.

totallyoriginal

please note that there are also “yellow dots” and “green dots” that may be placed on your slab that is (or was) returned back to you from cac without a “green bean” sticker

i am waiting to see what will happen with the “red dot” coins with the new cac grading service .. i believe that it’s still an open question

jtlee321

I'm curious as to what all the different color dots represent? Where is this information posted?

CACfan

My dots said:

PVC
AT (artificial toning)
cleaned
env. damage
putty

I think that there were several other problems. I am unsure about the dots' colors, though.

totallyoriginal

jtlee321 said:

I'm curious as to what all the different color dots represent? Where is this information posted?

here-are-some-great-examples-of-how-ja-can-help-you-sharpen-your-grading-skills-with-his-dots

jtlee321

totallyoriginal said:

jtlee321 said:

I'm curious as to what all the different color dots represent? Where is this information posted?

here-are-some-great-examples-of-how-ja-can-help-you-sharpen-your-grading-skills-with-his-dots

Thank you!

LarryC

These are all my rejects over the last 10 years or so. I always ask JA for an explanation of any coin that didn’t CAC. My submissions are no more than 6 - 10 coins at a time. The education is well worth the price of admission as my batting average has gone form 40% to 80+%! I have learned through this process on what coins NOT to buy even though they look good. Probably very few downgrades here so depending on a person’s eye there could be more “Genuine” situations than “Downgrades” coming in new CAC holders for some. Note - I’m a collector…not a dealer.

oreville

i have a NGC 1886 MS-63 silver dollar not stickered with a red dot in which JA wrote “Looks OK”

Does this mean that it is a true C quality coin….just low end for the assigned grade?

LarryC

That would be my guess. I sent him a flashy killer Ike $1 PCGS MS-65 and I couldn’t believe he didn’t sticker. He said it was a great coin but with too much chatter on the left field so more like a 64+. I kept it regardless of no-CAC because it looked so nice. Finally sold it when a MS-66 replaced it. CAC stickered that one! He is very tough on Ike’s!

CACfan

LarryC said:

These are all my rejects over the last 10 years or so. I always ask JA for an explanation of any coin that didn’t CAC. My submissions are no more than 6 - 10 coins at a time. The education is well worth the price of admission as my batting average has gone form 40% to 80+%! I have learned through this process on what coins NOT to buy even though they look good. Probably very few downgrades here so depending on a person’s eye there could be more “Genuine” situations than “Downgrades” coming in new CAC holders for some. Note - I’m a collector…not a dealer.

A coin can have issues yet still be a bargain and thus easy to flip for a tidy profit. And its ownership can still be savored by a collector. CAC is indirectly, unintentionally harming the market for impaired coins.

VERTIGO

LarryC said:

That would be my guess. I sent him a flashy killer Ike $1 PCGS MS-65 and I couldn’t believe he didn’t sticker. He said it was a great coin but with too much chatter on the left field so more like a 64+. I kept it regardless of no-CAC because it looked so nice. Finally sold it when a MS-66 replaced it. CAC stickered that one! He is very tough on Ike’s!

I have a stack of bean ikes. I have a stack of failures twice as big. 

VERTIGO

EASilver said:

In reading the "C coin" thread, I got the impression that coins that should be in details holders received a Red Dot from JA. Is this standard procedure for any non-problem-free coin submitted? Can I assume that any coin returned without a CAC sticker, and without a red dot, is merely overgraded (or low end)? My focus here is early circulated (EF and below) silver coins.

I think some of the old coins have old cleanings and other old problems. Not all, but some. I think these will be the details coins. I know I have one 08/7 bust half that was obviously cleaned long ago. It was well toned over. It didn't get a sticker. And I believe that's why. I think people will be getting coins back in details holders and not understand why. Pcgs and ngc have been passing a lot of coins that won't pass here. And that is why we are here. 

CACfan

VERTIGO said:

EASilver said:

In reading the "C coin" thread, I got the impression that coins that should be in details holders received a Red Dot from JA. Is this standard procedure for any non-problem-free coin submitted? Can I assume that any coin returned without a CAC sticker, and without a red dot, is merely overgraded (or low end)?

My focus here is early circulated (EF and below) silver coins.

YOU SAID: I think some of the old coins have old cleanings and other old problems. Not all, but some. I think these will be the details coins. I know I have one 08/7 bust half that was obviously cleaned long ago. It was well toned over. It didn't get a sticker. And I believe that's why. I think people will be getting coins back in details holders and not understand why. Pcgs and ngc have been passing a lot of coins that won't pass here. And that is why we are here. 

***MY REPLY***: I suspect that almost all collectors, investors, and dealers would pay far more for a coin in a straight-grade NGC or PCGS slab than for that same coin in a CAC 2.0 "Details" slab. NGC and PCGS have already set the standards for "problem free" status. But each service is free to have its own standards. This is still a free market country, at least for the present.

CAC 2.0 will have its fans but behemoths NGC and PCGS ain't going anywhere anytime soon. Their respective 35 and 36 years of aggressive marketing have indelibly convinced the numismatic masses of their credibility. Heck, I know people who still give ancient, Z-list slab grades credibility.

And let us not forget that if a coin is grossly over-graded and/or otherwise misrepresented, NGC and PCGS will always honor their respective guarantee in my experience.

LarryC

CAC is really a niche market for identifying those few coins that haven’t been messed with. When you go to a coin show there are very few CAC coins in dealer cases so the market for decent coins that may not be CAC worthy (many are and just haven’t been sent in) isn’t going anywhere. There is something for everybody in this hobby whether raw, slabbed, impaired, cleaned, PQ, etc. 

CACfan

LarryC said:

CAC is really a niche market for identifying those few coins that haven’t been messed with. When you go to a coin show there are very few CAC coins in dealer cases so the market for decent coins that may not be CAC worthy (many are and just haven’t been sent in) isn’t going anywhere. There is something for everybody in this hobby whether raw, slabbed, impaired, cleaned, PQ, etc. 

CAC has approved untold thousands of coins that have "been messed with". CAC allows a certain degree of cleaning, acid dipping, etc. But they definitely draw the line sooner than NGC and PCGS do.

LarryC

Correction…excessively messed with.

totallyoriginal

LarryC said:

Correction…excessively messed with.

"offensive enough for us [cac] because we're purists"

edited to reference the quote from @JACAC

totallyoriginal

i find it interesting to understand the difference in value for "a" coins