Cleaning is not to be confused with a light dipping of mint state coins.
I would imagine a great number of coins in slabs have been dipped at least once. Its something I always struggle over when I look at a beautiful coin that still has luster that really shouldn't given its age and the preservation techniques of the past.
I wonder about some coins that have been cleaned a long time ago and are straight graded by a TPG... should CACG straight grade them and also note that they were cleaned a long time ago on the label? Or should they just be a detailed coin, cleaned. @CAC_Ops what do you think they will do, or should do? What would you personally do?
I realize you did not ask me this question but I know from my long term interaction with JA the following:
dump them while you can. Do not spend more money on a coin in a coffin. I listened to JA a long time ago and never regretted following his advice. Such coins were usually found in an ANACS, ICG, and NGC slab. Much less so in PCGS. If you find them in PCGS send a message to me and I will advise privately.
CACG will not straight grade them per their statements many many MANY times. Details coin, cleaned. Many dealers will spot such cleaned coin quickly. Even a decent number of experienced collectors will spot them. Even multi million dollar rare coins have been found with an old cleaning. Cleaning is not to be confused with a light dipping of mint state coins.
I'll let the man, the myth, and the legend himself speak to this one. @JACAC
I wonder about some coins that have been cleaned a long time ago and are straight graded by a TPG... should CACG straight grade them and also note that they were cleaned a long time ago on the label? Or should they just be a detailed coin, cleaned. @CAC_Ops what do you think they will do, or should do? What would you personally do?
I realize you did not ask me this question but I know from my long term interaction with JA the following:
dump them while you can. Do not spend more money on a coin in a coffin. I listened to JA a long time ago and never regretted following his advice. Such coins were usually found in an ANACS, ICG, and NGC slab. Much less so in PCGS. If you find them in PCGS send a message to me and I will advise privately.
CACG will not straight grade them per their statements many many MANY times. Details coin, cleaned. Many dealers will spot such cleaned coin quickly. Even a decent number of experienced collectors will spot them. Even multi million dollar rare coins have been found with an old cleaning. Cleaning is not to be confused with a light dipping of mint state coins.
I can send you tons of pics of seated dollars that are straight graded by pcgs that have been cleaned and don’t deserve to be. NGC is definitely farther down the rabbit hole but pcgs is going down the same path.
I wonder about some coins that have been cleaned a long time ago and are straight graded by a TPG... should CACG straight grade them and also note that they were cleaned a long time ago on the label? Or should they just be a detailed coin, cleaned. @CAC_Ops what do you think they will do, or should do? What would you personally do?
I realize you did not ask me this question but I know from my long term interaction with JA the following:
dump them while you can. Do not spend more money on a coin in a coffin. I listened to JA a long time ago and never regretted following his advice. Such coins were usually found in an ANACS, ICG, and NGC slab. Much less so in PCGS. If you find them in PCGS send a message to me and I will advise privately.
CACG will not straight grade them per their statements many many MANY times. Details coin, cleaned. Many dealers will spot such cleaned coin quickly. Even a decent number of experienced collectors will spot them. Even multi million dollar rare coins have been found with an old cleaning. Cleaning is not to be confused with a light dipping of mint state coins.
I can send you tons of pics of seated dollars that are straight graded by pcgs that have been cleaned and don’t deserve to be. NGC is definitely farther down the rabbit hole but pcgs is going down the same path.
SeatedNut: When I stated that PCGS straight graded cleaned coins much less than NGC I was not complimenting PCGS but stating how bad NGC was in comparison. I am in agreement with your comment.
At some point, one has to wonder if you run out of things to grade in certain categories that haven’t been cleaned.
Run out of untouched 19th century U.S. silver? After you get past Morgans it shouldn't take that long.
It will be interesting to see what happens to lightly cleaned coins that have re-toned over many decades. I have no problem with straight grading pieces that were lightly cleaned long ago and have re-toned significantly. Many don't like it but a line has to be drawn somewhere and I'm not wealthy enough to be a purist.
@jtlee321 I agree that the CAC team seems to be open to ideas. So…There is an obvious issue with yellow. Either make it way too bright and cheap looking or tone it down and make it look gold, which will definitely confuse some. Imo, stick with a darker red…and thanks for helping to design what’s in our heads.
I think this aspect is being overthought. The actual “Details” grade is enough to identify a problem coin. Changing the color scheme is unnecessary. I get the appeal that it would be nice to quickly see those problem coins by using a different color, but it would absolutely kill the market for those coins. You might as well give them the Scarlet Letter.
In my opinion the use of "Retro-Grade" would be a poor choice. While it is written with a hyphen, it certainly would be spoken as a single word and the noun retrograde is already well-known and used in astronomy to mean the apparent backward motion of a planet or the motion of a planet in what appears to be the opposite of normal. Folks would have a great time pointing out how a coin that gets crossed from NGC and/or PCGS would have moved in a retrograde fashion because the coin moved from a more desirable holder to a less desirable holder. Essentially, it would be used as a source of derision to show that the coin moved in a backwards pattern.
I doubt that there are many astronomers who buy CAC coins. Words can have more than one meaning. "Retrograde" can simply mean "resulting in a previous state", as will be the case when CAC slabs use the same grades previously approved for the same coins in NGC and PCGS holders.
I'm not an astronomer and yet that definition is the first that came to mind when I saw the suggestion.
You are one coin collector out of the 150 million who collect coins, as per the U.S. Mint. Again, words can have multiple definitions, one of which for "retrograde" is "resulting in a previous state". I doubt that many CAC buyers will associate CAC slabs with astronomy.
I doubt that many CAC buyers will associate CAC slabs with the Legacy company you’ve referred to as well.
Good evening. Many thanks for your ideas. We’re trying to simplify the original label. We will not be using the word “ legacy “ We are considering LC - meaning Legacy crossover or VC - vintage crossover and incorporating one or 2 letters after the serial number. For example 5034.65/926718-LC. Or just L. Maybe CR? Your thoughts? Thanks JA
My vote is for just L. No matter what it is, it’ll have to be defined; so the simpler, the better.
@jtlee321 I agree that the CAC team seems to be open to ideas. So…There is an obvious issue with yellow. Either make it way too bright and cheap looking or tone it down and make it look gold, which will definitely confuse some. Imo, stick with a darker red…and thanks for helping to design what’s in our heads.
I think this aspect is being overthought. The actual “Details” grade is enough to identify a problem coin. Changing the color scheme is unnecessary. I get the appeal that it would be nice to quickly see those problem coins by using a different color, but it would absolutely kill the market for those coins. You might as well give them the Scarlet Letter.
So you’re suggesting they just leave the problem coin label with a green bean on it? I can’t believe that is even a consideration. If a bean is going on the label, it will have to change colors for problem coins. P and N labels don’t use colors because their “brand identity” isn’t a green bean
I'm starting to think that the whole Legacy thing is totaly unnecessary. The coin itself should carry the merit. Move on or don't. One slab, one love, be done with it.
@jtlee321 I agree that the CAC team seems to be open to ideas. So…There is an obvious issue with yellow. Either make it way too bright and cheap looking or tone it down and make it look gold, which will definitely confuse some. Imo, stick with a darker red…and thanks for helping to design what’s in our heads.
I think this aspect is being overthought. The actual “Details” grade is enough to identify a problem coin. Changing the color scheme is unnecessary. I get the appeal that it would be nice to quickly see those problem coins by using a different color, but it would absolutely kill the market for those coins. You might as well give them the Scarlet Letter.
So you’re suggesting they just leave the problem coin label with a green bean on it? I can’t believe that is even a consideration. If a bean is going on the label, it will have to change colors for problem coins. P and N labels don’t use colors because their “brand identity” isn’t a green bean
Then “Details” coins just shouldn’t be graded by CAC.
In my opinion the use of "Retro-Grade" would be a poor choice. While it is written with a hyphen, it certainly would be spoken as a single word and the noun retrograde is already well-known and used in astronomy to mean the apparent backward motion of a planet or the motion of a planet in what appears to be the opposite of normal. Folks would have a great time pointing out how a coin that gets crossed from NGC and/or PCGS would have moved in a retrograde fashion because the coin moved from a more desirable holder to a less desirable holder. Essentially, it would be used as a source of derision to show that the coin moved in a backwards pattern.
I doubt that there are many astronomers who buy CAC coins. Words can have more than one meaning. "Retrograde" can simply mean "resulting in a previous state", as will be the case when CAC slabs use the same grades previously approved for the same coins in NGC and PCGS holders.
I'm not an astronomer and yet that definition is the first that came to mind when I saw the suggestion.
You are one coin collector out of the 150 million who collect coins, as per the U.S. Mint. Again, words can have multiple definitions, one of which for "retrograde" is "resulting in a previous state". I doubt that many CAC buyers will associate CAC slabs with astronomy.
I doubt that many CAC buyers will associate CAC slabs with the Legacy company you’ve referred to as well.
You may be right but I actually thought it at first.
I always thought it meant Sport? Which is a level up. On a Ducati motorcycle the S has upgraded components, usually suspension. Then you go to R for racing, and with Audi cars you go to RS. Sorry for digressing here, do not want to go too much off topic. Anyway, Super or Superior start with an S and that is what a green or gold bean represent, much better(A), or better(B), then average….an upgrade from standard such as a (C).
Edited to add >
For Mercedes:
S: Special Class = Sonderklasse
SL: Sport Light = Sportlich-Leicht
You are correct . That other guy likes to speak as if he’s an authority on all matters .
On bmw , like my R 1250 GS Adventure the R signifies opposed twin cylinder and the S is for 4 cylinders . The S can run circles around the R on the street. Car manufacturers use codes for a plethora of designations and configurations. Each manufacturer often have their own as it’s not universal . Each person do your research on your own stuff for your knowledge
Yes, but it can be confusing, as you have letter designations prior to and after the engine displacement figure. On your bike, which is the go-to for adventure touring, The R prefix boxer (opposed) twin, and the GS suffix; meaning on road/off road as translated from german. Either way, excellent bike, but very tall. Even with the shorter seat option I can’t touch flat footed on it.
I still have my “Legacy” ‘77 R100 RS, but don’t ride it as much as I should. My go too ride is a ‘93 Ducati 900SS Superlight which was resurrected after neglect from previous owner. That one sits nice and low….and the desmo sound beats with your heart. Cheers and happy riding….Todd
Comments
I would imagine a great number of coins in slabs have been dipped at least once. Its something I always struggle over when I look at a beautiful coin that still has luster that really shouldn't given its age and the preservation techniques of the past.
SeatedNut: When I stated that PCGS straight graded cleaned coins much less than NGC I was not complimenting PCGS but stating how bad NGC was in comparison. I am in agreement with your comment.
It will be interesting to see what happens to lightly cleaned coins that have re-toned over many decades. I have no problem with straight grading pieces that were lightly cleaned long ago and have re-toned significantly. Many don't like it but a line has to be drawn somewhere and I'm not wealthy enough to be a purist.
As always YMMV.
P and N labels don’t use colors because their “brand identity” isn’t a green bean
P and N labels don’t use colors because their “brand identity” isn’t a green bean
Then “Details” coins just shouldn’t be graded by CAC.
I still have my “Legacy” ‘77 R100 RS, but don’t ride it as much as I should. My go too ride is a ‘93 Ducati 900SS Superlight which was resurrected after neglect from previous owner. That one sits nice and low….and the desmo sound beats with your heart. Cheers and happy riding….Todd