With heaping amounts of respect to those who are far far more experienced than I in this industry, I offer the following thoughts:
Just because there are no bid/ask spreads on an item doesn't mean there is no market for the items or that prices are sane, insane, or otherwise. It's about supply, demand, and nothing else. Market-makers help with liquidity for sure - but these days, there is plenty of liquidity available from Legend Auctions, GreatCollections, eBay, Instagram, direct websites, etc. We've never lived in a more liquid market environment.
There is a growing segment of folks who demand to collect old holders, green beans, gold beans, and plenty of other esoteric stuff. While I personally wouldn't have paid $12k for an NGC 1.0, I cannot fault he/she who did. They wanted holder more than their $12k, and perhaps they believe it will go up in value in the future (or not).
Speaking of which, let us not forget that in 2021, someone paid $1.56M for an unopened copy of Super Mario 64:
yeah, and how much is that super Mario worth today if the person had to sell it? or if the buyer of the MS63 $1 who paid $12G had to unload it for cash?
very bad deals.
I am NOT against collecting of the holder. I am against the unwarranted ridiculous prices they have been going for. People will get hurt. I call it Moderns II.
I use the 100 year test when I consider buying things that don't produce income, but that can be liquidated by my heirs. No, I don't expect to live another 100 tears, but it gives me a perspective on how things might look in 10 or 20 years, assuming the best. Real property passes the test. Monet yes. Kinkade no. Chain cent yes. Old slabs no. '58 Corvette yes. Mario Brothers unopened no. All IMO obviously.
I only started this thread to advise those who already own old slabs NOT to crack it out in favor of a higher grade at CAC. I started buying these old slabs as well as sample slabs as a fun adjunct to collecting coins and they were very cheap in the beginning in 1988. Not so anymore and I have become more of a seller than buyer at these elevated levels. However, I have noticed that the line of potential buyers have grown dramatically in the past three years.
I only started this thread to advise those who already own old slabs NOT to crack it out in favor of a higher grade at CAC. I started buying these old slabs as well as sample slabs as a fun adjunct to collecting coins and they were very cheap in the beginning in 1988. Not so anymore and I have become more of a seller than buyer at these elevated levels. However, I have noticed that the line of potential buyers have grown dramatically in the past three years.
Totally agree with that. I have several that will never be crossed. I like the look of some of these old slabs, not just interested in the $$.
Many gold beaned coins should be valued at 1.5 grades higher and there is often an associated coin eye appeal factor that is also favorable. This is separate from the old holder aspect often prized (perhaps illogically).
I disagree as an old slab shows that many coins are stable regarding surfaces, toning, etc. A coin certified yesterday could show signs of doctoring down the road! This is a key reason OGH and NGC fatty have a modest premium.
Please, old slabs are not worth the premiums a few people are trying to make them into. Be careful. BUY THE COIN NOTTHE HOLDER most times.
The coin first of course then the holder. Let’s face it the new holders are not that attractive with their prongs and thicker plastic. I like older PCGS holders and will pay a modest premium for them. Will never buy a penny or dime in new plastic as it kills the view of the coin.
Please, old slabs are not worth the premiums a few people are trying to make them into. Be careful. BUY THE COIN NOTTHE HOLDER most times.
Funny that you’re selling several in your current auction. I’m sure you didn’t voice these opinions to the consignor of them. Also, your own auction estimates for them definitely include substantial premiums.
Yes, we are selling them. I did NOT pick them-my staff did. I gave them a talk after what I saw. I would never accept them if I had my way. I stand by my opinion.
I see nothing wrong w/collecting them at reasonable prices. There are people out there who are trying to make the prices unreasonable. That's dangerous.
Yes, we are selling them. I did NOT pick them-my staff did. I gave them a talk after what I saw. I would never accept them if I had my way. I stand by my opinion.
I see nothing wrong w/collecting them at reasonable prices. There are people out there who are trying to make the prices unreasonable. That's dangerous.
I just don’t understand this logic. You happily sell toned MS65 Morgan’s that bring triple what an MS65 is worth. How’s that different than a vintage holder causing a coin to bring triple what it’s worth?
Yes, we are selling them. I did NOT pick them-my staff did. I gave them a talk after what I saw. I would never accept them if I had my way. I stand by my opinion.
I see nothing wrong w/collecting them at reasonable prices. There are people out there who are trying to make the prices unreasonable. That's dangerous.
What’s really dangerous is you selling COMMON DATE OVER HYPED MS 68 toned Franklins for over $100,000 and other common dates for astronomical figures. That’s the true numismatic crime. Much worse than overpriced gold stickers. Where is the instant liquidity for the collector who bought the $100,000 Franklin? Who later sold it for a big loss.
First, there is a HUGE PROVEN market for toners. In the case of the Frankie-it got out of hand in bidding. That can happen with any coin.
I'm not here trying to cause any trouble. I am just saying be careful of buying old holders for too much. I see a disturbing trend being formed by a few individuals.
Collect what you like and enjoy within your budget but realize that the further away from buying mainstream PQ coins, the more risk you are taking and the likely you are to see price swings (volatility). Sometimes risk and volatility plays in your favor with a big reward and sometimes it results in a huge loss. Giant premiums for old plastic and toners is clearly an area with more risk and potentially either higher rewards or higher losses.
First, there is a HUGE PROVEN market for toners. In the case of the Frankie-it got out of hand in bidding. That can happen with any coin.
I'm not here trying to cause any trouble. I am just saying be careful of buying old holders for too much. I see a disturbing trend being formed by a few individuals.
I happen to own three of the hottest NGC 1.0 black slab with the most desired 1924 Mint State $20 Saints. One is gold stickered, one is green stickered and the last one is my favorite, a perfectly cracked out slab with an inferior mint state $20 Saint substituted in place of the original coin. They were fun purchases a long time ago at less than $1500 to $3000 each. Only reason I am not selling yet is I cannot afford the tax effect of such a sale plus they are my favorite.
I rate them as a hold not as a buy.
It seems most buyers are buying just one of the coveted slabs for themselves as a “fun” purchase fully understanding the risks of the “tulip mania.” They can afford to lose the entire purchase price. But such buyers especially seem to hunger for something new and different. It seems that the ultra wealthy and non coin-collectors want these old slabs but cannot have them. I see the jealous look in their eyes. They become desperate.
Just last night, Heritage sold such a 1924 MS-62 Saint in a stickered NGC 1.0 black slab for an astounding new record of $15,600!!!
I did not and would not bid on such lot. However, it does seem that prices will keep rising as supplies are so thin and the demand is now growing by leaps and bounds. We might be headed towards a blowout?
But Laura’s posted advice is sound. I would not be a buyer at these prices yet both Laura and I are lone voices in preaching caution.
This part of the discussion dealing with toning has hit on the subject of a grading column I'm writing explaining the toning "bump."
First. A coin with attractive toning is a beautiful thing to see. They are scarce to rare depending on the coin series. Many take your breath away making some coins better than others or even in some cases "the best-of-the-rest." The problem I have (actually I don't) is that the price of many of these exceptional coins sell for huge amounts of money when compared to exceptional untoned pieces. No one should be able to put a price cap on what someone wishes to pay for anything! It is a personal decision. I just see cases where many of these coins are graded by their beauty rather by their condition of preservation. I call it the toning "shove!" Remember, tulips are pretty too.
High eye appeal toned coins are similar to colorful compelling art. Something I want to look at frequently.
Untoned coins certainly have their lane. Yet, comparably, they just don’t generally excite me. Ultimately, it’s the emotional reaction vs a clinical reaction. When both are present, it’s beauty incarnate.
Comments
Just because there are no bid/ask spreads on an item doesn't mean there is no market for the items or that prices are sane, insane, or otherwise. It's about supply, demand, and nothing else. Market-makers help with liquidity for sure - but these days, there is plenty of liquidity available from Legend Auctions, GreatCollections, eBay, Instagram, direct websites, etc. We've never lived in a more liquid market environment.
There is a growing segment of folks who demand to collect old holders, green beans, gold beans, and plenty of other esoteric stuff. While I personally wouldn't have paid $12k for an NGC 1.0, I cannot fault he/she who did. They wanted holder more than their $12k, and perhaps they believe it will go up in value in the future (or not).
Speaking of which, let us not forget that in 2021, someone paid $1.56M for an unopened copy of Super Mario 64:
https://comics.ha.com/itm/video-games/nintendo/super-mario-64-wata-98-a-sealed-n64-nintendo-1996-usa/a/7261-28137.s
Maybe THAT we can all agree is truly truly crazy
very bad deals.
I am NOT against collecting of the holder. I am against the unwarranted ridiculous prices they have been going for. People will get hurt. I call it Moderns II.
I started buying these old slabs as well as sample slabs as a fun adjunct to collecting coins and they were very cheap in the beginning in 1988. Not so anymore and I have become more of a seller than buyer at these elevated levels. However, I have noticed that the line of potential buyers have grown dramatically in the past three years.
I see nothing wrong w/collecting them at reasonable prices. There are people out there who are trying to make the prices unreasonable. That's dangerous.
I'm not here trying to cause any trouble. I am just saying be careful of buying old holders for too much. I see a disturbing trend being formed by a few individuals.
I rate them as a hold not as a buy.
It seems most buyers are buying just one of the coveted slabs for themselves as a “fun” purchase fully understanding the risks of the “tulip mania.” They can afford to lose the entire purchase price. But such buyers especially seem to hunger for something new and different. It seems that the ultra wealthy and non coin-collectors want these old slabs but cannot have them. I see the jealous look in their eyes. They become desperate.
Just last night, Heritage sold such a 1924 MS-62 Saint in a stickered NGC 1.0 black slab for an astounding new record of $15,600!!!
I did not and would not bid on such lot. However, it does seem that prices will keep rising as supplies are so thin and the demand is now growing by leaps and bounds. We might be headed towards a blowout?
But Laura’s posted advice is sound. I would not be a buyer at these prices yet both Laura and I are lone voices in preaching caution.
First. A coin with attractive toning is a beautiful thing to see. They are scarce to rare depending on the coin series. Many take your breath away making some coins better than others or even in some cases "the best-of-the-rest." The problem I have (actually I don't) is that the price of many of these exceptional coins sell for huge amounts of money when compared to exceptional untoned pieces. No one should be able to put a price cap on what someone wishes to pay for anything! It is a personal decision. I just see cases where many of these coins are graded by their beauty rather by their condition of preservation. I call it the toning "shove!" Remember, tulips are pretty too.
High eye appeal toned coins are similar to colorful compelling art. Something I want to look at frequently.