Please help me understand the process .

Vincent.Savage

 I spoke with one of the cac graders today I do some business with regarding a 1911 D $10 indian PCGS ms 61 I just picked up.    I asked why my coin is only graded an ms 61 and hasn’t passed cac approval .  ( assuming it was submitted )    He responded saying : 

It looks really nice as far as marks

go as an MS61

Keep in mind, it's REALLY tough to 

judge CAC quality from an image.

The coin looks 63+ to 64 from images

on pcgs cert verification.

I do notice a slight break in the luster

down the entire length of Indian's neck

on the obverse and also on the eagle's

 shoulder on reverse.  

The key area past those 2 locations is 

the 4th feather from the bottom of the 

indian's headdress(not counting the

2 adjacent to her neck partially covered

by her hair)

There IS definitly rub towards the top

of the feather.

Could be

the result of slight wear.

That's my guess without having the

coin in front of me.  

If so, they probably net graded it MS61

because of the eye appeal .... it

looks so much better than the really

worn stuff they put in AU58 holders

Hope this helps
END …..

Yes it sure does help doesn’t guys !!?     Well that takes me to my question.     I want to better understand.    When I send it in will cac grade it to the equivalent of AU 58 / 58 + with a green bean , if they feel like that’s the proper grade for the coin .    Or will it just be a straight grade ?  I guess my question is the following .  Is cac making distinctions inside a grade ?  IE:   AU 58  vs AU 58 Cac or AU 58 + for very good in grade ?    I’m just a little lost and really tired but I’m trying to understand the process they’ll use .   I’m sure there are 25 threads and 300 posts on it but I’m hoping someone can give me the slow guys version for beginners 🤓 in layman terms ???  Please   Or point me to the thread and post that is clearest explanation.    Thank you Gents .    Btw,  I’m so impressed when I meet experts experienced that see things untrained eyes would never see .  Case in point today and his thoughts …. 

acspatriot13

AU58 graded by CAC is the same as an AU58 CAC. To being even clearer, it would be considered a B coin. If it graded AU58+, that means it was regarded as an A coin. There won’t be “market” graded (or C) coins in CAC holders. Your MS61 $10 would be graded to the equivalent that CAC would put their green sticker on it today.

Vincent.Savage

acspatriot13 said:

AU58 graded by CAC is the same as an AU58 CAC. To being even clearer, it would be considered a B coin. If it graded AU58+, that means it was regarded as an A coin. There won’t be “market” graded (or C) coins in CAC holders. Your MS61 $10 would be graded to the equivalent that CAC would put their green sticker on it today.

Ok I’m with you so far .    So if it is considered an A coin CAC will make that known ?   By using a + symbol  or a premium holder to signify + / A grade equivalent? 

WilliamJ

I am not real sure what CACG would say.... but the response from the grader sure will help me when looking at Indian eagles in the future! Thank you for sharing his grading points. The feathers ect...taught me something valuable for grading them.
    

Vincent.Savage

WilliamJ said:

I am not real sure what CACG would say.... but the response from the grader sure will help me when looking at Indian eagles in the future! Thank you for sharing his grading points. The feathers ect...taught me something valuable for grading them.
    

 We also spoke at length a couple months ago about cac grading standards on Indians.  

Cac is tough on Indians .   That is for sure 

WilliamJ

I wish that I knew how to grade them better.
    Recently I had a 64+ (different year) not sticker,  obv. Friction, but that 1932 63 + received a cac sticker, you did say that it was solid for the grade!

acspatriot13

They will just give it a + if it’s an A coin. They’re not going to have different holders.

Vincent.Savage

acspatriot13 said:

They will just give it a + if it’s an A coin. They’re not going to have different holders.

Ok that’s great . I now understand clearly.   I thank you .   

 I also understand now that the coin is going to be graded and whether it’s a B or A in that grade is determined by the coin .

Thanks again 👍🏻🙏🏻

pcgscacgold

All I can add is if that 1911D is a CACG AU58, that is one amazing AU58. I think there will be a lot of PCGS/NGC MS61-63 gold coins regraded into AU58 CACG holders.

Beautiful coin VS.

Vincent.Savage

pcgscacgold said:

All I can add is if that 1911D is a CACG AU58, that is one amazing AU58. I think there will be a lot of PCGS/NGC MS61-63 gold coins regraded into AU58 CACG holders. Beautiful coin VS.

 Isn’t that the truth !!!   Lol 

It would equate to me having overpaid for it as a 58 but that’s fine .   It’ll be , as you say … about the finest 58 out there 

DeplorableDan

Thank you for posting Vincent, I found the email from the grader to be very informative. I see what he is saying, the high point rub technically knocks this coin out of “uncirculated” grades. For what it’s worth, and this is my opinion only, I would think that if there ever was a terrific candidate for a 58+, this coin is one of them. I would be very surprised if that one didn’t garner a +, great looking coin. 

Vincent.Savage

DeplorableDan said:

Thank you for posting Vincent, I found the email from the grader to be very informative. I see what he is saying, the high point rub technically knocks this coin out of “uncirculated” grades. For what it’s worth, and this is my opinion only, I would think that if there ever was a terrific candidate for a 58+, this coin is one of them. I would be very surprised if that one didn’t garner a +, great looking coin. 

What is a shame is if the rub wasn’t there it’d be a $40k in 63+ ( No recent comps ) to an $80,000 coin in 64 

The sad part is that I tend to think the coin was actually uncirculated but mishandled in someone’s jewelry box or collection .  Since there are no other dings as would occur in a pocket full of change etc 

But I really don’t know and with the break in luster and rub marks we just have to call it a circulated coin . 

 Isn’t it fantastic reading an experienced experts opinion.!!?

 And the eyes seeing what they are looking at , because my eyes don’t see it that clearly . One moment I see it another moment I don’t .
( Lack of experience) 

 I placed my 11 D next to my 09 S 64+ cac 

Hard for me to tell the difference.   Guess I need my eyes checked ….  Give me your opinion .    Wait for pix 

Vincent.Savage

This is the 1911 D 

Vincent.Savage

Sorry it wouldn’t let me expand and download for a closer view.   Perhaps you can expand as needed from the image .  This is the 09 S 64+ cac Half Dome Coin 

DeplorableDan

@Vincent.Savage

I agree that the 11-d may have been mishandled in a jewelry box or something, it definitely doesn't appear like it actually circulated. When you place them next to each other, I could imagine that the 11-d does have more eye appeal, and it could very well be the more attractive coin in hand. This is what's interesting about the AU-58 grade, sometimes the coin could be butt ugly, and other times when you have a "slider" like yours, it can show in hand like an ms64. There are a lot of coins with slight wear currently graded MS in other tpg holders that would be downgraded quite a bit if graded by CAC, I have a feeling were gonna see some very beautiful 58+ coins coming to the market in CAC holders soon. You can also see that your 11-d has a considerably better strike than the 09-s, take note of the hair detail in the center, and the detail of the feathers.

Nic

11d eagles are extremely hard to find in any high grade with eye appeal.

The Winter FUN Show is coming up in Orlando. Not far from you. The best step in understanding the process would be to take both of these coins to FUN and go over them with a respected dealer/collector/grader. Begins with luster and skin. Marks and strike come later. Huge difference between those two coins that someone needs to help you understand in person. IMHO.

Vincent.Savage

Both of you make sense .   I will try to get to FUN.   It’s not far from me . 

Thx 

DeplorableDan

Vincent.Savage said:

Both of you make sense .   I will try to get to FUN.   It’s not far from me . 

Thx 

I will be there, I also know that @Winesteven be there too. I think it would be a great opportunity to see more coins in hand, as the majority of my dealings in the hobby have been online. 

SharpStrike

DeplorableDan said:

There are a lot of coins with slight wear currently graded MS in other tpg holders that would be downgraded quite a bit if graded by CAC, I have a feeling were gonna see some very beautiful 58+ coins coming to the market in CAC holders soon.

--------

And a whole lot of them it seems like too, based on what CAC is hinting at. Could this create a very bifurcated market for AU58's, with the "A" coins (with +'s) trading for big premiums, while the ordinary AU58 "B" coins trade at much lower levels?

It almost seems like AU58+ coins could become a bit like gold CAC stickered coins as people speculate about what the grade would be if it didn't have some minor friction that relegated it to AU58+. Is it AU58+ with MS64 appeal, or AU58+ with MS61 appeal? I can see that taking on a life of its own like the gold stickered coins have.

It will make for a very interesting AU58 market for sure.

Pyrite

Clean fields supercede grade.

DeplorableDan

SharpStrike said:

DeplorableDan said: There are a lot of coins with slight wear currently graded MS in other tpg holders that would be downgraded quite a bit if graded by CAC, I have a feeling were gonna see some very beautiful 58+ coins coming to the market in CAC holders soon. -------- And a whole lot of them it seems like too, based on what CAC is hinting at. Could this create a very bifurcated market for AU58's, with the "A" coins (with +'s) trading for big premiums, while the ordinary AU58 "B" coins trade at much lower levels? It almost seems like AU58+ coins could become a bit like gold CAC stickered coins as people speculate about what the grade would be if it didn't have some minor friction that relegated it to AU58+. Is it AU58+ with MS64 appeal, or AU58+ with MS61 appeal? I can see that taking on a life of its own like the gold stickered coins have. It will make for a very interesting AU58 market for sure.

I agree that there may be a substantial difference in market prices between 58 and 58+. I wouldn’t be surprised cac 58+ to trade at market prices for ms62-63 of other tpgs. It will be a robust market for sure, and I would even expect that 58+ cac coins get targeted for upgrades back into ms holders at other tpgs depending on the spread between grades.