CAC responds to a frequently asked question: What % of coins does CAC approve?

CAC_Team

CAC approves varying percentages of different coins and as a result, a sticker brings a varying premium among different dates and mint marks.  Two major issues to consider are strike quality and mint luster.  In general, if the overall strike quality and luster for a date was considered of strong quality, there are a lot of high-quality coins on the market.  Therefore, a stickered coin will not bring a great premium over a non-CAC coin if the quality of the average coin in the higher grades is desirable.  A higher percentage of coins in higher grades will be approved but the premium brought for each coin will be smaller.  On the other hand, if a strike/luster is generally inferior, then fewer high-quality coins exist.  A sticker, in this case, will bring a larger premium as fewer coins will exist in the higher grades and fewer coins in each grade will receive stickers.

 

An example of a lackluster and generally inferior strike is the 1923 Philadelphia Mint $20 Saint Gaudens in Gem BU ms65.  Though 666 are in PCGS or NGC holders (536 and 130, respectively), CAC has only stickered 7 of them, or about 1%. CDN/PCG suggest a price of $13,800 for a stickered 65 but only $5250 for an unstickered one, a premium of about 260%.

 

On the other hand, CAC stickers nearly 25% of the 1923-D Saint in ms65 that are submitted. This date and mintmark have, in general, a very strong strike and amazing luster.  A stickered 65 in this issue brings an estimated $4200 whereas an unstickered coin in the same date and mint retails for $3310.  Here, the sticker creates a modest premium of 25%, much smaller than the 260% seen with the 1923-P in ms65.

 

Collectors of Saints will confirm that many 1923-P were a bit lackluster and unappealing the day they were struck whereas 23-D’s are amongst the best in quality in the series.  There is not an exact number of the so-called top coins for the grade. On the other hand, high-end 23-P’s stand out because of how few exemplify the characteristics of an A or B quality coin. This also depends on the characteristics of the coin as well as the standards of the grading service. A coin in a class of poorly-struck coins will draw higher sticker premiums because fewer coins exist in the highest grades This phenomenon is also evidenced with Morgan Dollars 1890 and 1891 amongst others. S mints are always well struck and exhibit blazing luster whereas 0 mints are often weekly struck with average to poor luster.

 

Another notorious coin that was only an ms63 or lower the day it was struck is the 1926-D Buffalo nickel.

There is no such number/percentage of how many coins CAC approves.  In some cases, this number is as low as 1% and in others can reach as high as 60%. This depends greatly on the strike/luster characteristics of and grading standards for that specific coin.

 

I am aware there are many scholars/specialists on this board.  Feel free to share your thoughts and experiences dealing with coins in your specialty that were especially well-made or somewhat inferior.

ms71

Excellent explanation.

Perfection

To truly try and estimate the approval rate one must consider factors other than how many coins CAC passes. Many if not most dealers do not send all their coins to CAC.  If a dealer has 100 coins and he believes that 50 have no shot he sends 50.  If CAC passes 30% of the 50 (NO CHANCE in most cases) then the approval rate is actually only 15% since the dealer did not send the other 50.   The CAC pass rate is MUCH lower than most people believe.  Walk a show and look in the cases. Sure this is not perfect but perhaps 5% of all coins at a show are CAC.  That also adds to the pass rate being very low.   One can also look at the auctions to see how many CAC coins there are versus Non.  Again this percentage is high because the auctions do not want too many lower end coins and the sellers send their better CAC coins to auctions versus selling them in other ways. 

Perfection

I just looked at the Fun Sale.  There are 2088 coins.  569 are CAC.  This is 27%.  This is far too high and does not come close to matching the number of coins that pass CAC.  Why?  The Fun sale is probably the top sales of the year so many sellers consign their coins. Also, HA is looking for top coins for their sale. 

ms71

From my experience, I'd say that an estimate of 5% of coins with CAC beans at a typical show is high.

MarkFeld

Perfection said:

I just looked at the Fun Sale.  There are 2088 coins.  569 are CAC.  This is 27%.  This is far too high and does not come close to matching the number of coins that pass CAC.  Why?  The Fun sale is probably the top sales of the year so many sellers consign their coins. Also, HA is looking for top coins for their sale. 

I can think of at least a couple of reasons for that. For one, a glance at the sale showed me that well more than 100 of the coins in the sale aren't eligible for assessment by CAC in the first place. For another, my guess is that more common/generic/lower value coins tend to have a much higher pass rate than rarer/more valuable coins. And it's the latter that are more prevalent in the sale.

breakdown

This thread shows that there remains considerable confusion about how many coins sticker. Perfection, who has put together some high end CAC only sets, thinks the sticker rate is well below 27%. 

But in another thread, CAC already said that they have beaned over 40% of the coins they have reviewed. 

SnakePlissken

PCGS grades coins 60% Preservation 15% Strike 15% Luster & 10% Eye Appeal.
I have long argued that CAC uses a different scale on saints.
I've been mostly ignored.
My guess for CAC is 40% Luster 40% Preservation 20% Strike

Stevie

SnakePlissken said:

PCGS grades coins 60% Preservation 15% Strike 15% Luster & 10% Eye Appeal. I have long argued that CAC uses a different scale on saints. I've been mostly ignored. My guess for CAC is 40% Luster 40% Preservation 20% Strike

What does preservation encompass exactly in your definition?

SnakePlissken

Stevie said:

What does preservation encompass exactly in your definition?

Preservation is an industry standard term.

MarkFeld

SnakePlissken said:

PCGS grades coins 60% Preservation 15% Strike 15% Luster & 10% Eye Appeal.
I have long argued that CAC uses a different scale on saints.
I've been mostly ignored.
My guess for CAC is 40% Luster 40% Preservation 20% Strike

My observations are that NGC and PCGS assign considerably more weight to eye-appeal and luster and less to strike, then those percentages. And that CAC weighs “preservation” far more heavily than you give them credit (or more accurately, criticize them) for.

MarkFeld

Stevie said:

SnakePlissken said:

PCGS grades coins 60% Preservation 15% Strike 15% Luster & 10% Eye Appeal.
I have long argued that CAC uses a different scale on saints.
I've been mostly ignored.
My guess for CAC is 40% Luster 40% Preservation 20% Strike

What does preservation encompass exactly in your definition?

Since he didn’t answer your question, I’ll try. It sounds as if he was referring to what many of us call technical condition (grade) - a major component of grading.

SnakePlissken

MarkFeld said:

And that CAC weighs “preservation” far more heavily than you give them credit (or more accurately, criticize them) for.

The OP/CACTeam used the word "luster" NINE times in the first post.
"Preservation" was not mentioned.

I have come to discover this independently.
Now it's in black & white.

There were only 6 posts on this topic before me & it has been up awhile.
For years people have wondered how CAC grades.
Apparently there is little interest anymore.

MarkFeld

SnakePlissken said:

MarkFeld said:

And that CAC weighs “preservation” far more heavily than you give them credit (or more accurately, criticize them) for.

The OP/CACTeam used the word "luster" NINE times in the first post.
"Preservation" was not mentioned.

I have come to discover this independently.
Now it's in black & white.

There were only 6 posts on this topic before me & it has been up awhile.
For years people have wondered how CAC grades.
Apparently there is little interest anymore.

Have you considered the possibility that most of us already know and take it as a given that “preservation” is the largest component of a coin’s grade? And thus, the fact that it isn’t mentioned frequently, doesn’t mean much of anything?

john

Sort of a weird conversation. Does not logic dictate that "preservation", as applied to coins and, more directly, grading evaluation of coins, is the first and most important necessary component of determining the originality of the piece since the time it was minted, and that it has been maintained unchanged?

Preservation by the very definition, either is or it is not. A coin can have a weak strike but be in the original "preserved" condition. A coin can have a weak strike and lackluster luster but be in the original "preserved" condition.

A coin can have either of those conditions, but could have been cleaned, enhanced, have wear (no matter how minor), show a fingerprint, be tooled, etc., and this would negate a description of "preservation" originality, no?

Can a counterfeit coin be evaluated, as to the status of "preservation"? Of course. If not, why not?

I am probably getting to old for this kind of definition stuff.

breakdown

MarkFeld said:

SnakePlissken said:

MarkFeld said:

And that CAC weighs “preservation” far more heavily than you give them credit (or more accurately, criticize them) for.

The OP/CACTeam used the word "luster" NINE times in the first post.
"Preservation" was not mentioned.

I have come to discover this independently.
Now it's in black & white.

There were only 6 posts on this topic before me & it has been up awhile.
For years people have wondered how CAC grades.
Apparently there is little interest anymore.

Have you considered the possibility that most of us already know and take it as a given that “preservation” is the largest component of a coin’s grade? And thus, the fact that it isn’t mentioned frequently, doesn’t mean much of anything?

Mark, people should appreciate that you take the time to quell misunderstandings people spread about CAC. It has happened for years at PCGS's forum and now, you see it quite a bit here on CAC's own forum.

WilliamJ

I do appreciate you, Mark! Thank you for contributing your expertise to this forum.

CAC_Team

You love to see it

Pyrite

Look>Think>Like?>Hmmm>See bean>buy.

Winesteven

My understanding is that “Preservation” refers to marks, distractions and wear for the grade.

My sense is that CAC gives Preservation a LOT of weight, along with a lot of weight to luster and eye appeal, and some, but MUCH LESS weight on Strike.

Surface issues, like having been puttied, is a separate issue from the above. If they feel a coin has been puttied, or artificially toned, that’s a VETO, regardless of the above criteria.

Steve

SnakePlissken

Winesteven said:

My understanding is.....

Irrelevent.

A member of the CAC Team has recently told you how they grade with English words that have meaning.
Strike is mentioned 10 times by the OP

I'm not the one telling the CAC team how they grade.
I am agreeing with the CAC Team.

My problem with CAC is that it isn't how I grade.
Also, I'm answering the following question asked by the Team

CAC_Team said:

Feel free to share your thoughts and experiences dealing with
coins in your specialty that were especially well-made or somewhat inferior.