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At this point do you assume no-bean coins are CAC rejects?

CAC has been around so long at this point that I tend to view no-bean coins available in the marketplace as CAC rejects.  In other words, I tend to assume CAC has seen the coin in question and didn't like it for one reason or another.  I don't know if that's the right way to look at today's market.  and I'm curious how others see this.  Some dealers, like CRO, will come right out and tell you that a no-bean coin has been to CAC but most won't.

This question specifically relates to higher value coins.

GP
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Comments

  • edited December 2021
    Generally, yes, but context is everything. If a major dealer is selling the coin, most likely. If an old time collector or a seller that doesn’t specialize in coins is selling, maybe not. The Toro collection that recently sold via Heritage contained almost no CAC examples and was obviously recently graded. Following the sale I confirmed that a number of the coins I was watching received a sticker soon after. Interesting auction strategy when you think about it. High quality collection with some obvious CAC candidates. Send none of them in pre-auction and the coins that ultimately fail to sticker may sell for a higher price based on speculation that they will ultimately sticker.
  • Our firm sends in every coin worth $1,000 or more. A while ago, we had an entire 50-coin shipment rejected. But CAC approved 38 of a 56-coin shipment subsequently sent through another dealer. Both shipments had assorted Bust, Barber, and Seated coins. Many of the approved coins were subdued but that is what you get with most very old silver coins that have not been conserved.

    Even if just one coin stickers, it can pay the costs of an entire shipment. Hence, it is usually worth sending in everything. Kudos to CAC for keeping their prices low to accommodate mass shipments.

    But just because CAC rejects a coin does not make it worthless. After all, it is PCGS and NGC that have set the market-acceptable grading standards. We have many customers who care little about CAC stickers. But we also have many who worship CAC and will even pay a premium for lesser stickers like MAC and QA. Any sticker is better than none. 


  • If the coin is in a GC, Heritage or Stacks auction I assume the coin has been to JA at least once.  Same with coins at some of the big dealers out there.  It is known that a CAC bean gets you more money.  Few dealers want to leave $$ behind.
  • Absolutely Not 
     There are a lot of coins in collectors and dealers hands that do not have access to CAC. So if the coin comes from them I would say no. 

    On the other hand you have dealers, collectors  and auction houses that have access to cac. If that’s the case I say yes. With the auction houses I’m sure there’s a dollar amount that comes into factor. 

    It really depends on the source of the coin. Like stated above honest dealers will tell you straight up if you ask. In return you should treat them the same way.  There are the others that will try to pass it off as a choice piece and say it hasn’t been to cac.  So know your source and make the judgment call. 

  • Not ALWAYS.... however... let's say it gives me pause.   
    The trick is then deciding how important it is to me.
     :) 
  • I assume any coin that has a significant difference in value between stickered and non stickered has been sent in.  Most people do not want to leave money on the table.
  • Sometimes you cannot assume that. There are old collections hidden everywhere that will get graded and not sent to CAC yet. 
  • If you assume that unstickered coins of a particular value have already been to CAC, you’ll be wrong in a great many cases. However, as long as you realize that, there’s nothing wrong in playing it safe. In fact, for some people, that’s definitely the best way to proceed.
  • Nope.  I try to do a lot of snooping around for information to calculate the odds that the coin has been on the Magical Mystery Tour, or not.  Certainly not and exact science.  But I have had success getting coins to CAC acquired through eBay and GC.  If it is for sale by a dealer, often you can deduce what their CAC decision making criteria are and decide based on that.
  • Its smart to use common sense. Why wouldn't a seller want to get more? A bean does that magic. 
  • edited December 2021
    I haven't been terribly active in the market lately, but I have generally found dealers to be honest about whether or not they send their inventory to CAC.  One dealer I bought from often never sent anything to CAC and he told me so.  I was lucky enough to get 60% or so of what I bought from him stickered. Of course that was before CAC became what it is now. And as to buy or not to buy, it depends on "why"?   I have a collection with a key date coin that ran in the 10's (or 20's) of thousands with any full grade but I was able to find a very nice details coin that had a scratch!  What the heck.  Still cost a couple grand - and it's lovely.  It was in a less prestigious slab when I bought it as F details.  Sent it to NGC and it came back AU details.  Couldn't be more pleased (oh, sure I could be, but ....).   Nice luster, too!  haha.
  • Nope.  I try to do a lot of snooping around for information to calculate the odds that the coin has been on the Magical Mystery Tour, or not.  Certainly not and exact science.  But I have had success getting coins to CAC acquired through eBay and GC.  If it is for sale by a dealer, often you can deduce what their CAC decision making criteria are and decide based on that.
    I would think if there is a significant difference in value between grades or if the coin is over $500 or so it’s been to CAC if offered in auction or by a dealer.
  • Another thing - that I'm sure most folks have already thought about - reviewing the history of some specific, rare coins it seems like going a down a grade can help sometimes in terms of CAC acceptance - and then the question is, which is better - a grade lower with CAC or a grade higher without?  I have two "rare enough to be worth collecting as VF35's" that I know were previously graded as XF40's. Very small populations.  Both have CAC stickers.....   Are they worth more than XF 40's without stickers?   Grading wise I could see either of them with XF grades, but apparently CAC did not!
  • edited December 2021
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  • edited December 2021
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  • CAC has been around so long at this point that I tend to view no-bean coins available in the marketplace as CAC rejects.  In other words, I tend to assume CAC has seen the coin in question and didn't like it for one reason or another.  I don't know if that's the right way to look at today's market.  and I'm curious how others see this.  Some dealers, like CRO, will come right out and tell you that a no-bean coin has been to CAC but most won't.

    This question specifically relates to higher value coins.

    GP
    If it's a high end coin I usually assume the same. Look at the seller, if it's David Lawrence or David Kahn it's either been or is known it will likely fail. That's when I begin looking those coins over. The ones high end sellers have that don't have a bean. I look them over and compare to others I've seen. I collect a lot of CBH. I use sellers like these as tools to learn what a failure looks like. This has helped me tremendously. The coin shows i go to are the same. There are about 3 sellers that have mostly cac coins. If they have non cac coins I look them over and compare. 
  • edited December 2021
    Two ways to look at a coin from a dealer’s perspective: upside left to capitalize on & price relative to where it is on that spectrum. 

    Two ways to look at a coin from a collector’s perspective: towards the obv & at the rev

    i tend to look at the coin only. CaC, holder, grade come into ascertaining the price and my downside at said ask. I’m not really focused on adding value so no sticker really only tells me how to value it. Not having a sticker at a premier dealer tells me to flip the coin around a third time but that’s it. 

    I personally don’t like buying/targeting cac as it typically represents a maxed out coin asking all of the money. Sometimes that’s ok but I actually like compromise coins that offer value.  Maybe I am leaving money on the table as many of my coins Cac on the next set of hands but all and all I am solidly in the black$$$ as a hobbyist so it’s ok to leave a little meat on the bone for the next guy

  • For certain vendors who sell a lot of CAC coins I will assume anything without the bean was either a reject or was determined by the vendor to not be worth submitting for whatever reason. For a vendor who has no CAC coins or maybe one or two then I will take a closer look.
  • TurtleCat said:
    For certain vendors who sell a lot of CAC coins I will assume anything without the bean was either a reject or was determined by the vendor to not be worth submitting for whatever reason. For a vendor who has no CAC coins or maybe one or two then I will take a closer look.
    My thoughts exactly
  • For a vendor who has no CAC coins or maybe one or two then I will take a closer look.

    WRONG!!! That makes them a bottom fisher. Why would they not want to make more money? Plus, I would bet by the time you see their coins listed, a sharp dealer would have picked them off. 
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