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Petition for the inclusion of a 10 piece and 17 piece gold type set in the CAC registry

edited January 19 in General
Let's face it, set registries have been one of the most brilliant marketing strategies implemented by TPGs. Whether you participate in them or not, you can't deny that the competition amongst collectors has helped fuel the growth of the hobby exponentially over the past decade. PCGS offers a wide array of different sets to be completed, but I believe that some different sets with an alternate composition could be even more popular and help propel the growth of the CAC registry in its infancy. For reference, I currently do not participate in any registry sets at all, and I only have gold coins in my collection at the moment, so I will only be making recommendations that I think would benefit collectors of U.S. Gold. I do recall in another thread that the CAC team welcomed any feedback regarding set registries, so here it is.

Let's take a look at some of the gold type sets currently offered by PCGS. For circulation strikes, you have the 8 & 12 piece sets, which are fairly popular. Then, if you really want to go the extra mile, you can complete the full (36 piece) gold type set, however this set is is prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of collectors. Not many people can afford a set that includes both a Wire Edge and Rolled Edge Indian $10, a Large Capped Bust $2.5, or a Small Eagle Draped $10. Taking cost into consideration, most collectors settle for the 8 or the 12 piece sets, but Im convinced that that some minor expansions of those sets would be popular with many gold collectors, and help encourage participation in the new CAC registry.

The 12 Piece set includes:



Can anyone explain why the Gold Dollar deserves 3 spots in this set? Why is it that other coins with multiple types aren't necessary but for the $1 we need all 3 types? This has been the primary reason that I have yet to attempt to complete this set, and my assumption, based on recent activity on the other forum, is that I may not be alone in this opinion. I don't have anything against gold dollars, but the small size isn't everyones cup of tea, and many would rather not consume such a large portion of collecting funds hunting down all 3 types. My suggestion for the modification of this set is simple; Remove the requirement to obtain all 3 types and make this a 10 piece set, with one Gold Dollar, regardless of type.

Furthermore, I think an expansion of that set would be equally as popular, if not more. While these additional coins are rarely found for bargain prices, they are still much more attainable than the prohibitively expensive types required for the 36 piece set. This 17 piece set would encompass the entire history of U.S. gold coinage from start to finish, and I firmly believe that more gold type collectors would participate in the registries for a set such as this one. Take the 10 piece composition and add:

Draped $2.5
Draped $5
Draped $10
Capped $2.5
Capped $5
Classic $2.5
Classic $5

Im looking forward to hearing any feedback from the forum regarding these ideas, all opinions are welcome. 🙂
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Comments

  • I don't see why not. If you don't like it, then don't use the set. I'm sure there will be plenty of collectors that would use it.
  • I enjoyed that Post. Thanks.
  • I am with you DD. I have never understood why the gold $1 gets so much weight in the gold set. I mean, 25% of the coins in the set is a lot (3 out of 12). The person that created the 12 coin set many years ago must have had a love of gold $1's. It can't be affordability because a Type 2 in 64CAC will run you more than many of the others in 65/66CAC.

    I would love to see a set between the 12 and 36 coin sets.

    I will never be able to compete with the people here, my budget does not allow for that, but it would be fun to finish something. For now I have an 11 coin set and don't see adding a Type 2 $1 any time soon. I am focused more on the earlier years.
  • edited January 19
    I like the idea of having a gold type set somewhere between the 12-38 coins. For me, my goal is to get to 26 gold coins. I know I will have to compromise on the grades and maybe even the CAC sticker for some of the tougher coins. Below is a list of what I hope to someday have. I have 20 so far, shown with the grades next to them. Most of them have CAC stickers.

    Edited to add: I forgot to address Dan's points about the gold $1's. I like the dollars the least of all the gold coins that I collect, so I would agree to remove two of the $1's and make a 10-piece gold set for those that just want one example. Like most, for me it is the size of the gold $1's that turns me off to them. The Type 2 turns me off even more because most of them show the results of a clashed die.

    Donato

    Gold Dollar, Type 1 (1849-1854) - MS64+ CAC
    Gold Dollar, Type 2 (1854-1856) - MS62 CAC
    Gold Dollar, Type 3 (1856-1889) - MS67 CAC
    Draped Bust $2 1/2 (1796-1807)
    Capped Bust $2 1/2 (1808-1834)
    Classic Head $2 1/2 (1834-1839) - MS62 CAC
    Liberty $2 1/2 (1840-1907) - MS66+ CAC
    Indian $2 1/2 (1908-1929) - MS64+ CAC
    Indian Princess $3 (1854-1889) - MS62+ CAC
    Draped Bust $5, Large Eagle (1795-1807) - MS62
    Capped Bust $5, Large Bust (1807-1834)
    Classic Head $5 (1834-1838)
    Liberty $5, No Motto (1839-1866)
    Liberty $5, With Motto (1866-1908) - MS64+ CAC
    Indian Head $5 (1908-1929) - MS64
    Draped Bust $10, Large Eagle (1797-1804) - AU55
    Liberty $10, No Motto (1839-1866)
    Liberty $10, With Motto (1866-1907) - MS64+ CAC
    Indian $10, No Motto (1907-1908) - MS62 CAC
    Indian $10, With Motto (1908-1933) - MS64+ CAC
    Liberty $20, No Motto (1850-1866) - MS64 CAC
    Liberty $20, "TWENTY D." (1866-1876) - MS62+ CAC
    Liberty $20, "TWENTY DOLLARS" (1877-1907) - MS64+ CAC
    St. Gaudens $20, High Relief (1907) - MS63
    St. Gaudens $20, No Motto (1907-1908) - MS65+
    St. Gaudens $20, Motto (1908-1933) - MS65 CAC

  • Dan, I like your 10 coin set idea. I don't think you are alone in your distaste for the smaller gold coins so I imagine that set would be very popular. It seems appropriate, however, to add the Type 1 and Type 2 $1 back into the composition for the more comprehensive "intermediate" set. I think @divecchia has the perfect 26 coin list for the intermediate set.

    Fun topic to think about, thanks for posting.
  • Dan, I like your 10 coin set idea. I don't think you are alone in your distaste for the smaller gold coins so I imagine that set would be very popular. It seems appropriate, however, to add the Type 1 and Type 2 $1 back into the composition for the more comprehensive "intermediate" set. I think @divecchia has the perfect 26 coin list for the intermediate set. Fun topic to think about, thanks for posting.
    The 10 piece set is the main thing that I’m advocating for, I think it makes it more accessible for most collectors. Regarding the 17 piece/ “intermediate” set I would not be against taking that further by including multiple types of the coins that can actually be found. I just think that the 36 piece is excessive and there should be a a happy medium where you could still put together a “full” set without having to worry about the ultra rarities like a large capped 2.5, rolled edge Indian $10, 1796 no stars 2.5, etc.

  • Three different gold $'s, because of completely different designs or size, makes sense to me for the 12pc set.

    Disclaimer: I like trimes. :)



  • I’ve broken up sets because of not enjoying the $1 Gold coins.     Personally it would free up $$ normally used on the $1 coins for use upgrading the $1 Type 2 and $3 gold princess.

     Can anyone answer this question : if I have a $1 type 2 or $3 ms 64 cac and another person has them in ms 65+ cac -  do they get equal weight in the registry ?    Since those spots weight 6.00 & 5.00 respectively.   Or do the higher grades also result in higher average points ?   As in the registry uses both weight and graded??
  • edited January 20

    I’ve broken up sets because of not enjoying the $1 Gold coins.     Personally it would free up $$ normally used on the $1 coins for use upgrading the $1 Type 2 and $3 gold princess.

     Can anyone answer this question : if I have a $1 type 2 or $3 ms 64 cac and another person has them in ms 65+ cac -  do they get equal weight in the registry ?    Since those spots weight 6.00 & 5.00 respectively.   Or do the higher grades also result in higher average points ?   As in the registry uses both weight and graded??

    In the PCGS Registry the higher grades would get more points. If someone has the slot filled with an ms65+ coin and you have that same slot filled with an MS64 coin the other set would get more points and therefore rank higher than your set in the standings. To determine the points a coin gets, you take the grade (for example MS64 = 64 points) and multiply it by the Weight (6.00) for that slot and divide it by the Divisor. The Divisor is determined by the total Weight of all coins in the set added together. For the 12 piece U.S. Gold Type set the Divisor is 40.

    So using the first example (MS64 coin), it would be 64 X 6.00 = 384. Divide the 384 by the Weight of 40 and you will get 9.600 points for that coin in that slot.

    Using the second example (MS65+ coin), it would be 65.5 X 6.00 = 393. Divide the 393 by the Weight of 40 and you will get 9.825 points for that coin in that slot.

    You can see the higher graded coin is worth more in that slot (9.825 verses 9.600)

    I hope this explains it a little bit for you and I did not further confuse you.

    Donato
  • I like Donato's set. I would add the Capped large bust and Capped small bust $5's as 2 distinct types, but exclude the small size capped bust.  27 coins total.  Still some tough coins here, and the whole set will require a significant financial investment that still excludes unfortunately a great deal of collectors.  But this composition keeps the broad cross-section of US gold coins with some aspirational pieces while eliminating types that are out of reach for all but the very wealthiest collectors.  

    Gold Dollar, Type 1 (1849-1854)
    Gold Dollar, Type 2 (1854-1856)
    Gold Dollar, Type 3 (1856-1889)
    Draped Bust $2 1/2 (1796-1807)
    Capped Bust $2 1/2 (1808-1834)
    Classic Head $2 1/2 (1834-1839)
    Liberty $2 1/2 (1840-1907)
    Indian $2 1/2 (1908-1929)
    Indian Princess $3 (1854-1889)
    Draped Bust $5 (1795-1807)
    Capped Bust $5, Large Bust (1807-1812)
    Capped Bust $5, Small Bust (1813-1834)
    Classic Head $5 (1834-1838)
    Liberty $5, No Motto (1839-1866)
    Liberty $5, With Motto (1866-1908)
    Indian Head $5 (1908-1929)
    Draped Bust $10 (1795-1804)
    Liberty $10, No Motto (1838-1866)
    Liberty $10, With Motto (1866-1907)
    Indian $10, No Motto (1907-1908)
    Indian $10, With Motto (1908-1933)
    Liberty $20, No Motto (1850-1866)
    Liberty $20, "TWENTY D." (1866-1876)
    Liberty $20, "TWENTY DOLLARS" (1877-1907)
    St. Gaudens $20, High Relief (1907)
    St. Gaudens $20, No Motto (1907-1908)
    St. Gaudens $20, Motto (1908-1933)



  • edited January 20
    While we're at it... maybe there should be 5 compositions.  

    1) basic 8-piece 
    2) 20th century gold: add nm $10 and $20 as different types, plus any high relief saint) = 11 pieces.  Bonus idea - add $1 and $2.5 commem slots for a 13 piece set. (I like this!)
    3) Early gold intermediate set - start with the 8-piece and add the $3, any G$1, no-motto libs, classic heads, and "any" early $5 and $2.5.    16-piece 
    4) The 27-piece composition mentioned above. 
    5) The full 36 piece composition. 
  • The Whitman gold albums held the conventional 12 piece with the addition of the Classic $2.5 and $5.00.
    It seemed a reasonable grouping.
  • Just have to add that I think it is funny that people don’t like gold $s. That’s pretty much all I collect now. :) The less competition the better for me.
  • TurtleCat said:

    Just have to add that I think it is funny that people don’t like gold $s. That’s pretty much all I collect now. :) The less competition the better for me.

    Its not so much that we don't like them, as much as we don't prioritize them the same way. They are beautiful coins, but the size isn't everyone's "cup of tea". I really need glass/photography to appreciate the details of the coin and a lot of us have poor eyesight and are able enjoy larger coins more. My intention isn't to start a crusade against the significance of gold dollars, but if one is working with limited resources, I think the basic gold type set should only have 1, just like the other coins. Sure I understand that the designs were modified but you can use that same argument for the "no motto" or "with motto" coins that had minor design changes. I wouldn't mind if all 3 gold dollars are needed for the intermediate set along with the other attainable coins with multiple types.
  • edited January 20
    The problem with the gold dollars is the size makes them difficult to appreciate without pulling out a loop or good magnifier. The type two that I don't care for is not a design problem in my opinion (I like the design), it's trying to find one with no signs of die clashes. I know some people love those, but I'm trying the collect the coins the way they were intended to look, not with die clashes or die cracks on them.

    The dollar designs are all pretty in my opinion, just too small for many people's eyes to appreciate.

    Donato
  • NicNic
    edited January 20

    TurtleCat said:

    Just have to add that I think it is funny that people don’t like gold $s. That’s pretty much all I collect now. :) The less competition the better for me.

    Its not so much that we don't like them, as much as we don't prioritize them the same way. They are beautiful coins, but the size isn't everyone's "cup of tea". I really need glass/photography to appreciate the details of the coin and a lot of us have poor eyesight and are able enjoy larger coins more. My intention isn't to start a crusade against the significance of gold dollars, but if one is working with limited resources, I think the basic gold type set should only have 1, just like the other coins. Sure I understand that the designs were modified but you can use that same argument for the "no motto" or "with motto" coins that had minor design changes. I wouldn't mind if all 3 gold dollars are needed for the intermediate set along with the other attainable coins with multiple types.

    Always enjoy your posts double D.

    I think the 8pc set came about because of folks not wanting to spend much more than melt years ago. The smaller the denomination the greater premium. Some things never change.

    Type Sets:

    5pc- Liberty
    5pc- Indian/SG
    10pc- Both above
    12pc- Include Indian Princess Ty2 $ and 3 $

    Would that make sense? Not sure how you could get to just a single dollar coin and call it a type set?



  • Some random thoughts:

    1. Should collectors be OK collecting just the coins they want, registry or not? Absolutely!
    2. Should collectors who choose to partake in a particular registry set be ok not being competitive by choosing to not spend limited funds on filling every slot? Absolutely!
    3. Should collectors who choose to partake in a particular registry set and wants it complete, be ok with buying some coins in lower grades to be able to afford to complete that set? Absolutely!

    For ME, I was OK completing the 12 coin set. Had it been a 10 coin set, I would have been perfectly fine with that. For my personality, I choose to partake only in Registry Sets that I feel comfortable completing. That’s why I partake in DATE sets, like a Lincoln Wheat Date Set and an SLQ FH Date Set. I’m big on registry Type Sets, and partake in many. But there are also many Type Sets that I choose to avoid just because they would require many more coins (expensive ones) than I already own in my Dansco 7070 (like a 19th Century Type Set).

    Due to requirements of certain registry sets that I chose to do since only a few extra coins needed to be purchased, I bought three additional gold coins than I had in my 12 coin gold type set - I bought Classic Head $2.50 and $5, and an 1803 $10. I’m “done” with gold, and I’m ok with that!

    Steve
  • The more collecting options the better in my
    opinion. I just collect what I find and what I like, without specific sets in mind, so for me it works out better to have the small set options. I literally do not know what the next coin I will purchase will be- but I know it will find me when it’s time!
  • I am a huge fan of Type sets. Its something any one can do with out too much pain.....
  • edited January 20
    I would like to add, just for clarity, that I’m not married to 10 piece or the 17 piece configuration and I would be open to other modifications. The main reason for my post is to gauge how popular some different sets would be, and it seems that the majority are in favor of other gold type configurations. I hope that the CAC team takes this into consideration and would consider some different possibilities for the CAC registry. Type collecting is fun, and seems to be more popular than date or mint sets especially for gold coinage, and I think the current options for gold type sets in the registry are far too limited. Thank you for everyone’s consideration and insight, comments, and opinions. 
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