Value of Stickered PCGS Coins Post CACG Launch? — Welcome to the CAC Educational Forum

Value of Stickered PCGS Coins Post CACG Launch?

Do you think they will retain value and even increase over time? I do and see no reason to cross them to the new service.

The market makes no distinction between solid and high end for the grade with these coins (not addressing gold CAC designated coins). All guides convey that the green sticker implies premium for the grade. Thus this mystique will continue with the separately kept pop reports and the diminishing use of the sticker service now that a full grading service is offered.

Once the sticker service ends in years to come, stickered coins will have a cache much like old style TPG holders do today.
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Comments

  • I believe everything hinges on how the market receives a CACG + slab. If CACG + coins start selling for more money than a PCGS/CAC counterpart, there would be a financial incentive to cross the existing stickered coins to the + slabs. After some time has elapsed, the remaining stickered coins might be assumed to have tried to cross and failed, much like we assume for non stickered coins over $1000. I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another, but hopefully we don't have to speculate for much longer...
  • I think PCGS coins with CAC stickers will go up in value because they will have gone through double the scrutiny.
  • edited March 2023

    I believe everything hinges on how the market receives a CACG + slab. If CACG + coins start selling for more money than a PCGS/CAC counterpart, there would be a financial incentive to cross the existing stickered coins to the + slabs. After some time has elapsed, the remaining stickered coins might be assumed to have tried to cross and failed, much like we assume for non stickered coins over $1000. I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another, but hopefully we don't have to speculate for much longer...

    If there is a divergence in the price guides between the two CAC services, then perhaps you'll be correct. But, will that really happen? Will then create separate valuations?
  • Catbert said:

    I believe everything hinges on how the market receives a CACG + slab. If CACG + coins start selling for more money than a PCGS/CAC counterpart, there would be a financial incentive to cross the existing stickered coins to the + slabs. After some time has elapsed, the remaining stickered coins might be assumed to have tried to cross and failed, much like we assume for non stickered coins over $1000. I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another, but hopefully we don't have to speculate for much longer...

    If there is a divergence in the price guides between the two CAC services, then perhaps you'll be correct. But, will that really happen? Will then create separate valuations?
    I would imagine that there will be a new CPG for both CACG numerical grades, and plus grades, much like PCGS has now. Whether or not the CACG CPG will be completely divergent from the existing CPG for stickered coins, well, your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps @johnFeigenbaum may be able to shed some light on this subject if he is able to.
  • edited March 2023

    Catbert said:

    I believe everything hinges on how the market receives a CACG + slab. If CACG + coins start selling for more money than a PCGS/CAC counterpart, there would be a financial incentive to cross the existing stickered coins to the + slabs. After some time has elapsed, the remaining stickered coins might be assumed to have tried to cross and failed, much like we assume for non stickered coins over $1000. I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another, but hopefully we don't have to speculate for much longer...

    If there is a divergence in the price guides between the two CAC services, then perhaps you'll be correct. But, will that really happen? Will then create separate valuations?
    I would imagine that there will be a new CPG for both CACG numerical grades, and plus grades, much like PCGS has now. Whether or not the CACG CPG will be completely divergent from the existing CPG for stickered coins, well, your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps @johnFeigenbaum may be able to shed some light on this subject if he is able to.
    Dan. I’m referring to the two separate legal entities: CAC sticker service and CAC grading service. Will JF blend the two and not determine valuation separately? Agree that John F view would help answer the question. Edit to add: CAC never considered TPG plus grades when stickering.
  • Catbert said:

    Catbert said:

    I believe everything hinges on how the market receives a CACG + slab. If CACG + coins start selling for more money than a PCGS/CAC counterpart, there would be a financial incentive to cross the existing stickered coins to the + slabs. After some time has elapsed, the remaining stickered coins might be assumed to have tried to cross and failed, much like we assume for non stickered coins over $1000. I don't really have a strong opinion one way or another, but hopefully we don't have to speculate for much longer...

    If there is a divergence in the price guides between the two CAC services, then perhaps you'll be correct. But, will that really happen? Will then create separate valuations?
    I would imagine that there will be a new CPG for both CACG numerical grades, and plus grades, much like PCGS has now. Whether or not the CACG CPG will be completely divergent from the existing CPG for stickered coins, well, your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps @johnFeigenbaum may be able to shed some light on this subject if he is able to.
    Dan. I’m referring to the two separate legal entities: CAC sticker service and CAC grading service. Will JF blend the two and not determine valuation separately? Agree that John F view would help answer the question. Edit to add: CAC never considered TPG plus grades when stickering.
    Thank you for posing these questions. The official stance here at CDN regarding Greysheet/CPG values for the CAC stickers vs CACG is "wait and see." I know that's not terribly satisfying, but our philosophy is to follow the market with pricing, not lead it. The market needs to dictate pricing to us. My educated guess (and it is just that) is over time, CACG and CAC-sticker values will become the same. CAC-PCGS and CAC-NGC may differ in some cases but there are a lot of moving parts to this transition and we need to see how the market reacts to the new slabs, registries, etc.

    Another factor is that changing pricing schemes here at CDN is no small task so we don't want to pivot unnecessarily.

    We do plan to start adding + prices by year end.

    Hope this helps. thanks!

    John
  • edited March 2023
    There has been and will continue to be a greater market preference for PCGS OGH slabs with CAC stickers over newer PCGS slabs with the CAC stickers. Currently, the PCGS OGH slabs with CAC stickers are approaching the value of newer stickered plus graded PCGS slabbed coins and may soon reach parity or might even surpass it. This has already happened with red mint state graded copper cents.

    Once you cross a stickered OGH PCGS slabbed coin even to a CACG plus graded coin you can never go back.

    A wait and see attitude is most wise at this juncture,

    There are numerous enough raw, newer NGC and newer PCGS graded coins at this point to keep CACG busy.

    This is actually a good thing for CACG as it allows for CACG to start up and ramp up without getting overwhelmed with too many submissions.


  • oreville said:

    There has been and will continue to be a greater market preference for PCGS OGH slabs with CAC stickers over newer PCGS slabs with the CAC stickers. Currently, the PCGS OGH slabs with CAC stickers are approaching the value of newer stickered plus graded PCGS slabbed coins and may soon reach parity or might even surpass it. This has already happened with red mint state graded copper cents.

    Once you cross a stickered OGH PCGS slabbed coin even to a CACG plus graded coin you can never go back.

    A wait and see attitude is most wise at this juncture,

    There are numerous enough raw, newer NGC and newer PCGS graded coins at this point to keep CACG busy.

    This is actually a good thing for CACG as it allows for CACG to start up and ramp up without getting overwhelmed with too many submissions.


    We are on the same page. Thank you! -John
  • edited April 2023
    Catbert said:

    Do you think they will retain value and even increase over time? I do and see no reason to cross them to the new service.

    The market makes no distinction between solid and high end for the grade with these coins (not addressing gold CAC designated coins). All guides convey that the green sticker implies premium for the grade. Thus this mystique will continue with the separately kept pop reports and the diminishing use of the sticker service now that a full grading service is offered.

    Once the sticker service ends in years to come, stickered coins will have a cache much like old style TPG holders do today.

    A few thoughts:

    1. I strongly believe that PCGS stickered coins will do well going forward (“retain value and increase over time”).
    2. The market DOES indeed currently make distinctions between solid and high end for the grade. Almost all of the time, a PCGS coin with a plus grade with a green CAC sticker will clearly sell for more than the PCGS coin in just the whole grade with that green sticker, even though the sticker does not confirm the PCGS decision to award the plus is agreed to by CAC! Many times in grades 65 and higher the plus will add substantially to market value compared to the coin without the plus.
    3. There ARE reasons to consider crossing them. Ignoring “desired” holders like OGH and fatties, in my opinion it pays to cross a PCGS CAC coin to CACG with the instruction on the sub form to only cross with a plus or higher. Coins that CACG deem as “A” coins should cross with a plus. A CACG holdered coin with a plus grade and an “L” at the end of the cert number (a Legacy coin that crossed with a previous CAC sticker) in all likelihood will be valued higher than a PCGS coin in just a whole grade with a sticker. As noted above, we’ve seen that PCGS coins in plus grades with a CAC sell for more, so a coin in a CACG holder where for the first time, if it has a plus grade, now that plus grade has been confirmed by CAC (CACG) as actually meriting that plus! THAT’S why it pays to cross!
    4. With all that said though, for collectors like me where the PCGS Registry is important, I won’t be crossing any of my regular coins. I will submit for crossing my PCGS/CAC dupes in whole grades, but only allow them to cross if getting a plus grade or higher. Otherwise, I’ll have them returned to sell in just that whole grade with the sticker on the PCGS holder.

    Steve
  • CACG should be the destination for RAW coins. They either slab or don't
    But.... there is no record of which did NOT. ;)
  • @Winesteven re: your point #2, one should not assume that PCGS+ grades with green sticker will cross with a plus because CAC ignored the plus designation when previously reviewed. That was what I was trying to highlight when I said there is no CAC market guide that could recognize this vagary. My assertion given this imprecision might support notion that there will be the nostalgic value of leaving PCGS green stickered coins as is.
  • edited April 2023
    Catbert said:

    @Winesteven re: your point #2, one should not assume that PCGS+ grades with green sticker will cross with a plus because CAC ignored the plus designation when previously reviewed. That was what I was trying to highlight when I said there is no CAC market guide that could recognize this vagary. My assertion given this imprecision might support notion that there will be the nostalgic value of leaving PCGS green stickered coins as is.

    My friend, I did not say PCGS coins with a plus and CAC would cross to CACG with a plus. I said that those coins sell for more than PCGS coins with CAC’s but in a whole grade, and I also said that “A” coins should cross with a plus at CACG, and I also said that for “Legacy” coins that cross to CACG with a plus should sell for at least as much if not more than PCGS plus coins with a CAC, since on the PCGS plus coin CAC did not necessarily agree with the plus, but on. CACG graded coin with a plus, CACG says that coin does indeed merit the plus.

    What a horrible run on sentence, lol.

    I also said I plan on crossing my PCGS dupes with CAC stickers in a whole grade, but only allow them to cross if getting a plus or better via instructions on the submission form.

    Steve
  • edited April 2023
    @Winesteven re: your point #2, one should not assume that PCGS+ grades with green sticker will cross with a plus because CAC ignored the plus designation when previously reviewed. That was what I was trying to highlight when I said there is no CAC market guide that could recognize this vagary. My assertion given this imprecision might support notion that there will be the nostalgic value of leaving PCGS green stickered coins as is.
    My friend, I did not say PCGS coins with a plus and CAC would cross to CACG with a plus. I said that those coins sell for more than PCGS coins with CAC’s but in a whole grade, and I also said that “A” coins should cross with a plus at CACG, and I also said that for “Legacy” coins that cross to CACG with a plus should sell for at least as much if not more than PCGS plus coins with a CAC, since on the PCGS plus coin CAC did not necessarily agree with the plus, but on. CACG graded coin with a plus, CACG says that coin does indeed merit the plus. What a horrible run on sentence, lol. I also said I plan on crossing my PCGS dupes with CAC stickers in a whole grade, but only allow them to cross if getting a plus or better via instructions on the submission form. Steve
    Steve I am not exactly sure what point Catbert was making. But I think PCGS CAC Green sticker coins give the illusion that they could be either A or B coins and have 2 opinions, but a CACG coin without a plus and no Legacy infers only solid  for the grade and should theoretically sell for less than a PCGS/CAC coin.
    One question I wonder is a CACG plus with a L worth more than a straight CACG plus?
  • edited April 2023
    Stevie said:



    @Winesteven re: your point #2, one should not assume that PCGS+ grades with green sticker will cross with a plus because CAC ignored the plus designation when previously reviewed. That was what I was trying to highlight when I said there is no CAC market guide that could recognize this vagary. My assertion given this imprecision might support notion that there will be the nostalgic value of leaving PCGS green stickered coins as is.
    My friend, I did not say PCGS coins with a plus and CAC would cross to CACG with a plus. I said that those coins sell for more than PCGS coins with CAC’s but in a whole grade, and I also said that “A” coins should cross with a plus at CACG, and I also said that for “Legacy” coins that cross to CACG with a plus should sell for at least as much if not more than PCGS plus coins with a CAC, since on the PCGS plus coin CAC did not necessarily agree with the plus, but on. CACG graded coin with a plus, CACG says that coin does indeed merit the plus.

    What a horrible run on sentence, lol.

    I also said I plan on crossing my PCGS dupes with CAC stickers in a whole grade, but only allow them to cross if getting a plus or better via instructions on the submission form.

    Steve

    Stevie says: Steve I am not exactly sure what point Catbert was making. But I think PCGS CAC Green sticker coins give the illusion that they could be either A or B coins and have 2 opinions, but a CACG coin without a plus and no Legacy infers only solid  for the grade and should theoretically sell for less than a PCGS/CAC coin.
    One question I wonder is a CACG plus with a L worth more than a straight CACG plus?

    I (Steve) say: Stevie, first I agree with your comment. Regarding your question about a CACG plus graded coin with or without the Legacy designation. If a CACG plus coin has a Legacy designation, that indicates that PCGS or NGC agreed at a minimum with the whole grade number. That provides value for those collectors who are comforted by two separate opinions. However, we don’t know if it was PCGS or NGC (in my opinion it shouldn’t matter). Separately though, we also don’t know if PCGS or NGC gave that CACG plus coin a plus when they graded it, or not!

    Separately, a CACG plus coin that is not a Legacy coin could have originated one of several ways. First, it could be a raw coin (or crackout) that CACG gives a plus grade. Or it could be a graded coin never previously submitted to CAC, but now submitted to cross at CACG, and CACG grades it at a plus. In this case, did it cross at the same original grade, did it upgrade, or did it downgrade to the new CACG Plus grade? We don’t know, and I don’t care. Finally, this CACG plus coin could have happened with a person submitting a failed but defect free “C” coin that the submitter chooses to allow it to be crossed at a lower grade, and indeed CACG crosses it at a plus but at the next lower grade.

    As noted, to me these different originations make no difference. I focus on what the CACG experts say is the proper grade (in their opinion). However, to others, the origination, if known, could make a valuation difference.

    Steve
  • +1

    "to me these different originations make no difference. I focus on what the CACG experts say is the proper grade (in their opinion)."
  • Seatedman said:

    +1

    "to me these different originations make no difference. I focus on what the CACG experts say is the proper grade (in their opinion)."

    +2
  • There is a school of thought that the beaned coins will hold up strong-JA graded them. The majority of people do not know the new graders. The beans are a proven entity. This is what we have heard from many of our customers.

    It may take a little while before the new service catches on-like it took CAC.
  • Legend said:

    There is a school of thought that the beaned coins will hold up strong-JA graded them. The majority of people do not know the new graders. The beans are a proven entity. This is what we have heard from many of our customers.

    It may take a little while before the new service catches on-like it took CAC.

    That's a very good point. If CACG shows consistency and same tough grading standards as CAC bean, it will be valued the same. But it might take some time for that to play out.
  • edited April 2023
    Legend said:

    There is a school of thought that the beaned coins will hold up strong-JA graded them. The majority of people do not know the new graders. The beans are a proven entity. This is what we have heard from many of our customers.

    It may take a little while before the new service catches on-like it took CAC.

    JA is working with the group of three graders at CACG for hundreds of hours, grading blind hundreds if not thousands of coins. They’ll work as a team as long as it takes for all to be on the same page almost all of the time before those three graders split up.

    That process they have implemented is about as good as one can get with human beings, but not machines.

    Steve
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