Crazy Grading Disparity: From MS62 to MS64 on a Type 2 $20 Lib — Welcome to the CAC Educational Forum

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Crazy Grading Disparity: From MS62 to MS64 on a Type 2 $20 Lib

My firm's buyer bought this 1873 MS62 $20 Lib for $3,525 (first screenshot), sent it to CAC, requested a gold bean but got a mere green bean. I knew that there was something special about this coin (incredibly thick luster, shockingly few marks, original) but ended up flipping it for a whopping 10% profit -- and even that took seven months of shopping it around (LOL).

Someone a lot smarter than we were got it into a $31,725 MS64 slab (second screenshot). Ouch!

These events happened years ago and I suspect that the two people who will read this have had far bigger upgrade losses (even I have), but this one haunts me to this day because the under-grading was the most obvious that I have ever seen but I was too lazy to re-slab it. And how did JA miss it?

Thankfully, I am a retailer and thus do not need to rely on grading skills.
«1

Comments

  • Subjectivity of the grading companies can be enfuriating... In Sports gambling we call it variance.. But doggone some of these are hard to swallow.

  • that is an interesting difference of grading and transactions for it, but i really think both screenshots showing the images that were posted by ha are even more interesting to me

    it's obvious that the images are of the same coin, but the way both ha images look on screen are remarkably different

    i would love to see the coin in hand and also image it myself
  • CACfan said:
    My firm's buyer bought this 1873 MS62 $20 Lib for $3,525 (first screenshot), sent it to CAC, requested a gold bean but got a mere green bean. I knew that there was something special about this coin (incredibly thick luster, shockingly few marks, original) but ended up flipping it for a whopping 10% profit -- and even that took seven months of shopping it around (LOL). Someone a lot smarter than we were got it into a $31,725 MS64 slab (second screenshot). Ouch! These events happened years ago and I suspect that the two people who will read this have had far bigger upgrade losses (even I have), but this one haunts me to this day because the under-grading was the most obvious that I have ever seen but I was too lazy to re-slab it. And how did JA miss it? Thankfully, I am a retailer and thus do not need to rely on grading skills.
    If you were so certain it was undergraded why didn’t you send it in for regrade at PCGS. Who requests a gold bean anyway that is presumptous.
  • that is an interesting difference of grading and transactions for it, but i really think both screenshots showing the images that were posted by ha are even more interesting to me

    it's obvious that the images are of the same coin, but the way both ha images look on screen are remarkably different

    i would love to see the coin in hand and also image it myself

    In hand, the coin looks exactly like the first image. Maybe HA used different photography techniques for NGC versus PCGS in those days?
  • CACfan said:

    that is an interesting difference of grading and transactions for it, but i really think both screenshots showing the images that were posted by ha are even more interesting to me

    it's obvious that the images are of the same coin, but the way both ha images look on screen are remarkably different

    i would love to see the coin in hand and also image it myself

    In hand, the coin looks exactly like the first image. Maybe HA used different photography techniques for NGC versus PCGS in those days?
    so you are saying the ha 2012 image more accurately show what it looks like in hand vs. the 2014 image that ha posted?

    that's what i had initially guessed, but it is also why i think both images are super interesting to me

    thank you so much!
  • In my experience (and my impression of most others' experience) JA is very tough on gold. So a green bean on gold could potentially be an upgrade candidate.
  • In my experience (and my impression of most others' experience) JA is very tough on gold. So a green bean on gold could potentially be an upgrade candidate.

    why would anyone want to upgrade a coin if they know (with reasonably high confidence) that it will not sticker at the next grade up?
  • In my experience (and my impression of most others' experience) JA is very tough on gold. So a green bean on gold could potentially be an upgrade candidate.
    why would anyone want to upgrade a coin if they know (with reasonably high confidence) that it will not sticker at the next grade up?
    Could be for a non-CAC registry set which would increase their score at the next grade up. I’m actually in the middle of a deal going the opposite direction. I purchased an NGC 67* Ultra Cameo coin I am going to put back in its PCGS 66+ Deep Cameo/CAC holder.
  • In my experience (and my impression of most others' experience) JA is very tough on gold. So a green bean on gold could potentially be an upgrade candidate.

    why would anyone want to upgrade a coin if they know (with reasonably high confidence) that it will not sticker at the next grade up?
    Because it might be worth more than a CAC example would be at the next grade down.


  • In my experience (and my impression of most others' experience) JA is very tough on gold. So a green bean on gold could potentially be an upgrade candidate.

    why would anyone want to upgrade a coin if they know (with reasonably high confidence) that it will not sticker at the next grade up?

    Could be for a non-CAC registry set which would increase their score at the next grade up. I’m actually in the middle of a deal going the opposite direction. I purchased an NGC 67* Ultra Cameo coin I am going to put back in its PCGS 66+ Deep Cameo/CAC holder.

    i actually appreciate the opposite direction that you're going

    it's super interesting to me
  • MarkFeld said:

    In my experience (and my impression of most others' experience) JA is very tough on gold. So a green bean on gold could potentially be an upgrade candidate.

    why would anyone want to upgrade a coin if they know (with reasonably high confidence) that it will not sticker at the next grade up?
    Because it might be worth more than a CAC example would be at the next grade down.
    i think your answer is ok for the financial aspect, but is the upgrade to a holder that will not sticker ok for the hobby?

    thank you so much!
  • MarkFeld said:

    In my experience (and my impression of most others' experience) JA is very tough on gold. So a green bean on gold could potentially be an upgrade candidate.

    why would anyone want to upgrade a coin if they know (with reasonably high confidence) that it will not sticker at the next grade up?
    Because it might be worth more than a CAC example would be at the next grade down.
    i think your answer is ok for the financial aspect, but is the upgrade to a holder that will not sticker ok for the hobby?

    thank you so much!
    Why wouldn’t it be OK for the hobby? The lack of a sticker doesn’t necessarily mean that a coin is over graded.
  • MarkFeld said:

    Why wouldn’t it be OK for the hobby? The lack of a sticker doesn’t necessarily mean that a coin is over graded.

    it is taking me a while to learn some of the details about grading and how the @CAC_Team and @JACAC help us, so i really appreciate your explaining the background that i'm missing

    i would like to understand the reasons that a coin in a slab with a green bean is not accurately and correctly graded

    if it's not overgraded after it's been cracked out of it's previous holder that had a green bean, then why will the coin not sticker at the next grade up?
  • MarkFeld said:

    Why wouldn’t it be OK for the hobby? The lack of a sticker doesn’t necessarily mean that a coin is over graded.

    it is taking me a while to learn some of the details about grading and how the @CAC_Team and @JACAC help us, so i really appreciate your explaining the background that i'm missing

    i would like to understand the reasons that a coin in a slab with a green bean is not accurately and correctly graded

    if it's not overgraded after it's been cracked out of it's previous holder that had a green bean, then why will the coin not sticker at the next grade up?
    Because CAC stickers coins that they feel are A or B quality (but not C quality) for the assigned grade. And as good as CAC is, they’re not perfect. That means that sometimes, they decline to sticker coins that are better than C quality.
  • MarkFeld said:

    MarkFeld said:

    Why wouldn’t it be OK for the hobby? The lack of a sticker doesn’t necessarily mean that a coin is over graded.

    it is taking me a while to learn some of the details about grading and how the @CAC_Team and @JACAC help us, so i really appreciate your explaining the background that i'm missing

    i would like to understand the reasons that a coin in a slab with a green bean is not accurately and correctly graded

    if it's not overgraded after it's been cracked out of it's previous holder that had a green bean, then why will the coin not sticker at the next grade up?
    Because CAC stickers coins that they feel are A or B quality (but not C quality) for the assigned grade. And as good as CAC is, they’re not perfect. That means that sometimes, they decline to sticker coins that are better than C quality.
    ok i get your point about not being perfect and i truly believe this is why @JACAC will carefully provide additional consideration for a coin that has been resubmitted and apply either a red dot or yellow dot with an explaination for not stickering with a green bean .. i am fortunate to have a red dot coin in my collection for this very reason, but if it had a yellow dot, then i would have asked pcgs to regrade it at the lower grade .. unfortunately the coin does not actually have the red dot on it now, but it's only a problem when i give it to the next person to cherish it for a while and see immediately why it doesn't have a sticker .. i guess i could place a picture of the coin with it's red dot to accompany it when it's handed to the next person .. i digress slightly here, but i hope you all see how i feel about not having the sticker on it or the red dot that it finally got after resubmitting it and requesting the comment from @JACAC that was hand written to explain why it will not sticker (at any grade .. red dot vs. yellow dot)

    now to your point about a/b/c quality .. i don't yet understand the upgrade logic from a holder that has a green bean .. are you saying that it may not be accurately or correctly graded in the holder with the green bean when it does not (and will not) sticker at the next grade up?

    thank you so much!
  • MarkFeld said:

    MarkFeld said:

    Why wouldn’t it be OK for the hobby? The lack of a sticker doesn’t necessarily mean that a coin is over graded.

    it is taking me a while to learn some of the details about grading and how the @CAC_Team and @JACAC help us, so i really appreciate your explaining the background that i'm missing

    i would like to understand the reasons that a coin in a slab with a green bean is not accurately and correctly graded

    if it's not overgraded after it's been cracked out of it's previous holder that had a green bean, then why will the coin not sticker at the next grade up?
    Because CAC stickers coins that they feel are A or B quality (but not C quality) for the assigned grade. And as good as CAC is, they’re not perfect. That means that sometimes, they decline to sticker coins that are better than C quality.
    ok i get your point about not being perfect and i truly believe this is why @JACAC will carefully provide additional consideration for a coin that has been resubmitted and apply either a red dot or yellow dot with an explaination for not stickering with a green bean .. i am fortunate to have a red dot coin in my collection for this very reason, but if it had a yellow dot, then i would have asked pcgs to regrade it at the lower grade .. unfortunately the coin does not actually have the red dot on it now, but it's only a problem when i give it to the next person to cherish it for a while and see immediately why it doesn't have a sticker .. i guess i could place a picture of the coin with it's red dot to accompany it when it's handed to the next person .. i digress slightly here, but i hope you all see how i feel about not having the sticker on it or the red dot that it finally got after resubmitting it and requesting the comment from @JACAC that was hand written to explain why it will not sticker (at any grade .. red dot vs. yellow dot)

    now to your point about a/b/c quality .. i don't yet understand the upgrade logic from a holder that has a green bean .. are you saying that it may not be accurately or correctly graded in the holder with the green bean when it does not (and will not) sticker at the next grade up?

    thank you so much!
    Many, if not most collectors and dealers would rather have a coin that, for example, is graded 65 without a sticker, than one graded 64 with a sticker, when the former is more valuable in the market place. Whether that's a good thing, a bad thing or neither, doesn't affect that reality.
  • MarkFeld said:

    MarkFeld said:

    MarkFeld said:

    Why wouldn’t it be OK for the hobby? The lack of a sticker doesn’t necessarily mean that a coin is over graded.

    it is taking me a while to learn some of the details about grading and how the @CAC_Team and @JACAC help us, so i really appreciate your explaining the background that i'm missing

    i would like to understand the reasons that a coin in a slab with a green bean is not accurately and correctly graded

    if it's not overgraded after it's been cracked out of it's previous holder that had a green bean, then why will the coin not sticker at the next grade up?
    Because CAC stickers coins that they feel are A or B quality (but not C quality) for the assigned grade. And as good as CAC is, they’re not perfect. That means that sometimes, they decline to sticker coins that are better than C quality.
    ok i get your point about not being perfect and i truly believe this is why @JACAC will carefully provide additional consideration for a coin that has been resubmitted and apply either a red dot or yellow dot with an explaination for not stickering with a green bean .. i am fortunate to have a red dot coin in my collection for this very reason, but if it had a yellow dot, then i would have asked pcgs to regrade it at the lower grade .. unfortunately the coin does not actually have the red dot on it now, but it's only a problem when i give it to the next person to cherish it for a while and see immediately why it doesn't have a sticker .. i guess i could place a picture of the coin with it's red dot to accompany it when it's handed to the next person .. i digress slightly here, but i hope you all see how i feel about not having the sticker on it or the red dot that it finally got after resubmitting it and requesting the comment from @JACAC that was hand written to explain why it will not sticker (at any grade .. red dot vs. yellow dot)

    now to your point about a/b/c quality .. i don't yet understand the upgrade logic from a holder that has a green bean .. are you saying that it may not be accurately or correctly graded in the holder with the green bean when it does not (and will not) sticker at the next grade up?

    thank you so much!
    Many, if not most collectors and dealers would rather have a coin that, for example, is graded 65 without a sticker, than one graded 64 with a sticker, when the former is more valuable in the market place. Whether that's a good thing, a bad thing or neither, doesn't affect that reality.
    ack
  • Also, just because a coin has a green CAC sticker, it does not mean that it will upgrade. 
  • WilliamJ said:

    Also, just because a coin has a green CAC sticker, it does not mean that it will upgrade. 

    I wonder how much subconscious effect it has on the graders though, when a CAC coin comes in for reconsideration or regrade. I'd bet it at least gives a bit more pause to some, or adds some gravity to the reconsideration. Maybe. Just a thought.
  • JohnTCoin said:
    Also, just because a coin has a green CAC sticker, it does not mean that it will upgrade. 
    I wonder how much subconscious effect it has on the graders though, when a CAC coin comes in for reconsideration or regrade. I'd bet it at least gives a bit more pause to some, or adds some gravity to the reconsideration. Maybe. Just a thought.
    I agree- always go for the sticker before sending back for reconsideration or regrade. 
Sign In or Register to comment.