@johnFeigenbaum - For the 1880 Indian Head Cent graded MS66RB, the CAC Price Report has it at $1,200 (CAC Pop = 5). The PCGS Price Guide has that at $4,600.
My research on the PCGS Auction Prices Realized have the three most recent sales (regardless of TPG or CAC) as 8/2019 at $3,360, 2/2021 at $5,053, and 4/2021 at $4,230. All three sales were for different coins, and all three happen to be graded by PCGS, and each has a CAC. The PCGS pop in this grade is tiny, with only 6, and one more at 66+RB, so this recent sample of three sales is surprisingly large considering the small pop.
I was not the buyer in any of those sales. I bought mine privately earlier this year for $4,500.
Your thoughts on adjusting the price guide for this grade?
Steve
Steve, I adjusted the CAC level for MS66 RB, but when pricing RB Indian cents, one must also look at BN and RD coins that have sold in auction as a comparison. In this case, an MS66 RD example (non CAC, but with Eagle Eye Photo Seal sticker) sold recently for $3360 at Heritage. This has a clear impact on my perception of RB value. In fact, this forces a lower value for the previous wholesale value of 66 RD (non-CAC) which I lowered as a result.
@johnFeigenbaum - For the 1880 Indian Head Cent graded MS66RB, the CAC Price Report has it at $1,200 (CAC Pop = 5). The PCGS Price Guide has that at $4,600.
My research on the PCGS Auction Prices Realized have the three most recent sales (regardless of TPG or CAC) as 8/2019 at $3,360, 2/2021 at $5,053, and 4/2021 at $4,230. All three sales were for different coins, and all three happen to be graded by PCGS, and each has a CAC. The PCGS pop in this grade is tiny, with only 6, and one more at 66+RB, so this recent sample of three sales is surprisingly large considering the small pop.
I was not the buyer in any of those sales. I bought mine privately earlier this year for $4,500.
Your thoughts on adjusting the price guide for this grade?
Steve
Steve, I adjusted the CAC level for MS66 RB, but when pricing RB Indian cents, one must also look at BN and RD coins that have sold in auction as a comparison. In this case, an MS66 RD example (non CAC, but with Eagle Eye Photo Seal sticker) sold recently for $3360 at Heritage. This has a clear impact on my perception of RB value. In fact, this forces a lower value for the previous wholesale value of 66 RD (non-CAC) which I lowered as a result.
John - Thanks for your prompt reply. I understand and AGREE with the theoretical logic. However, in the past when I pointed out an auction purchase of mine, you correctly pointed out that the coin had tremendous eye appeal, and as a result that high price was an outlier, and therefore should not be used for pricing determinations. Based on that Heritage coin, I would say the same thing in the opposite direction. As we know, catalog descriptions must be kind to the consignor. Here's what Heritage felt they had to say about the color of that coin - "The original copper-red patina deepens at the peripheries" - a polite way of saying it really no longer merits a RED suffix. In my opinion, that's why that coin sold for a relatively low price, and is also an outlier.
As you know, Heritage sold this coin just a bit more than a month ago in May, yet the cert number and cert shows this is a VERY old slab. As such, Rick Snow's Photo Seal in my opinion, was probably applied decades ago, before the copper coin turned. I would make another educated guess that before a coin of this value were auctioned, either the consignor on his/her own, or at the request of Heritage, submitted it to CAC and it failed, due to the current color.
From 2018 through the time this most recent outlier was sold, other prices realized, regardless of TPG, were (older to newer) $9,000, $9,600 (this is the only one with a CAC), $5,760, $3,960, $6,600, and $6,600.
Not that it matters, But GC had two 66RD's sold, both Non CAC - 11/2019 $4,725, and just this past February 2022 for $6,190. This can possibly demonstrate that in this market, these coins are NOT going down in price, despite that sale of the darker 1880 MS66RD that reflected a price based on it's own eye appeal.
I truly don't want to twist your arm, but I'm only addressing your point for the coin you gave as justification for the position.
John - Thanks for your prompt reply. I understand and AGREE with the theoretical logic. However, in the past when I pointed out an auction purchase of mine, you correctly pointed out that the coin had tremendous eye appeal, and as a result that high price was an outlier, and therefore should not be used for pricing determinations. Based on that Heritage coin, I would say the same thing in the opposite direction. As we know, catalog descriptions must be kind to the consignor. Here's what Heritage felt they had to say about the color of that coin - "The original copper-red patina deepens at the peripheries" - a polite way of saying it really no longer merits a RED suffix. In my opinion, that's why that coin sold for a relatively low price, and is also an outlier.
As you know, Heritage sold this coin just a bit more than a month ago in May, yet the cert number and cert shows this is a VERY old slab. As such, Rick Snow's Photo Seal in my opinion, was probably applied decades ago, before the copper coin turned. I would make another educated guess that before a coin of this value were auctioned, either the consignor on his/her own, or at the request of Heritage, submitted it to CAC and it failed, due to the current color.
From 2018 through the time this most recent outlier were sold, other prices realized, regardless of TPG, were (older to newer) $9,000, $9,600 (this is the only one with a CAC), $5,760, $3,960, $6,600, and $6,600.
Not that it matters, But GC had two 66RD's sold, both Non CAC - 11/2019 $4,725, and just this past February 2022 for $6,190. This can possibly demonstrate that in this market, these coins are NOT going down in price, despite that sale of the darker 188066RD that reflected a price based on it's own eye appeal.
I truly don't want to twist your arm, but I'm only addressing your point for the coin you gave as justification for the position.
Steve
Steve, You are correct. The reality is we're just never going to be able to pin a single number onto high-end coins to represent individual ones. The prices we quote are designed to help people (wholesale and retail) make buying decisions. One should always use auction data and other pricing guides to make astute decisions about what you pay based on your opinion of specific quality.
As for GreatCollections, it would be great if they fed us their auction data. As it stands, it's very hard for us to include that in our analysis because it's too hard to look up individual coins on their site. Even if we did, our users wouldn't understand why a price had changed without seeing the APR data on the screen.
Just a comment Steven, but I have noticed that in general Indian Cents almost always go for more than their PCGS Price Guide value. Also, Buffalo Nickels seem to usually go for less than PCGS PGV. Of course this is just an observation of mine. I don't have any hard data to share at the moment.
I wanted to share the results from the latest @CoinRaritiesOnline early bird. They had a very nice 1840 $ pcgs AU50 CAC that they sold within the first hour or two . Price guide is 2k and they sold for just about double! This is not an outlier because Within the last year GFRC has also sold (2) other AUs for above price guide. I think the 1840 in Lower AU grades deserve a little love. Thoughts?
How you will compare price of challenge coins with money coin ?
share idea please !
How you will compare price of challenge coins with money coin ?
share idea please !
If someone wouldn't mind educating me, what is a "challenge coin"?
I wrote up a nice explanation and it got lost 🤦🏻♂️
Short version is its a coin that has a units insignia on it , motto and any other important details . They are carried by members of the unit. When working joint operations , training with or competing against other units either foreign or domestic it is common to receive and / or give a challenge coin. Usually to someone who has earned your respect .
I’ve had the privilege to receive and give to members of 7th Group Special Forces, Coast Guard , Seal Team One and members floating on the Nimitz in the Persian Gulf . To name just a few . They can be purchased online at eBay or in person at a Army Navy Surplus Store. Best to have earned it where possible .
Since I regularly use the Rare Coin Market Review as a retail guide, I wonder why '36 to '42 Jefferson Nickels are not listed. My registry set is comprised of NGC/CAC coins and while not highest rated I believe compares to the best in terms of eye appeal. But it is unclear what the CAC bean does for these coins even though they receive more points. Also what about Eisenhower Dollars ?
Since I regularly use the Rare Coin Market Review as a retail guide, I wonder why '36 to '42 Jefferson Nickels are not listed. My registry set is comprised of NGC/CAC coins and while not highest rated I believe compares to the best in terms of eye appeal. But it is unclear what the CAC bean does for these coins even though they receive more points. Also what about Eisenhower Dollars ?
I think I know why 1936 and 1937 Jefferson nickels are not listed. 😎
hi John - I am an avid Capped Bust Dime collector and the 1829 Extra Large 10 is not listed in the CAC price guide and I believe it should be. Its included in the PCGS registry set for major varieties and an accepted major variety in the Bust dime community. Can you please have it listed in the CAC price guide and in the greysheets, I think the prices for a rarity 4 are low in mint state. For example, the PCGS CAC'd coin in PCGS66 is priced out at $27.5k. Its 3 grades better than the next highest-graded coin and comparing it to others dates and varieties, its too low for a rarity 4. Just my 2 cents. I think many of the mint states should be bumped up. Thanks for considering this.
hi John - I am an avid Capped Bust Dime collector and the 1829 Extra Large 10 is not listed in the CAC price guide and I believe it should be. Its included in the PCGS registry set for major varieties and an accepted major variety in the Bust dime community. Can you please have it listed in the CAC price guide and in the greysheets, I think the prices for a rarity 4 are low in mint state. For example, the PCGS CAC'd coin in PCGS66 is priced out at $27.5k. Its 3 grades better than the next highest-graded coin and comparing it to others dates and varieties, its too low for a rarity 4. Just my 2 cents. I think many of the mint states should be bumped up. Thanks for considering this.
FYI, This variety (1829 10c JR-1) is already listed/priced in Greysheet. I'm not sure why it doesn't appear in the CAC price guide, but perhaps there are no stickered examples (tied to the variety).
@johnFeigenbaum - While I don’t know anything about this example, I know there are times with other coins where the CAC Pop/Price Report shows a pop of at least one, sometimes more, but no pricing in a particular high grade. Perhaps though, the Greysheet may not have pricing in those examples. But maybe there’s just not enough consistent sales data of coins with CAC’s, or the sales are way too old?
@johnFeigenbaum - While I don’t know anything about this example, I know there are times with other coins where the CAC Pop/Price Report shows a pop of at least one, sometimes more, but no pricing in a particular high grade. Perhaps though, the Greysheet may not have pricing in those examples. But maybe there’s just not enough consistent sales data of coins with CAC’s, or the sales are way too old?
Steve
It just depends on the item. Sometime CAC has a pop and we don't have a price, or the reverse. In the case of the 1829 JR-1, CAC doesn't seem to have a pop on it (if I had to guess).
John, I too requested the same recognition for the 1829 Extra Large 10c in the Price Guide. I own a JR-1 extra large 10c pcgs ms62 CAC. I can provide slab photo and cost information, if it would help. Thank you.
Just curious. Do you know why the market views the CAC stickered 1908 NM $20 Saint as the least valuable of the type trio of 1908NM 1924 and 1928 MS-67 Saints?
JA has been appropriately tough on what he sees as a true MS-67 1908 NM Saint. The pop count of these 1908 NM in MS-67 is about half of the much more pricey 1924 and 1928 MS-67 Saint. I realize the PCGS/NGC pop counts in MS-67 are much higher for the 1908 NM Saints due to the Wells Fargo hoard but shouldn't the low CAC pop for these prevail price-wise?
It is just a matter of pricing inefficiency? I also realize the 1924 and even the 1928 are generally more attractive l issues.
John, forgive me if this is a beginner question, but how does one calculate greysheet wholesale snd retail for CAC plus graded coins, let’s say a 1911-D Saint in NGC MS66+ with CAC. Is it the same number (s) for PCGS? I’ve wondered why Heritage doesn’t provide the info when selling CACplus grade coins. Thanks for any help/advice.
Comments
You can see the Heritage coin here:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/indian-cents/1880-1c-ms66-red-pcgs-eagle-eye-photo-seal-from-a-mintage-of-more-than-38-million-pieces-the-1880-indian-cent-is-still-e/a/63188-44055.s?type=surl-63188--44055
You can see our levels here (subscription required):
https://www.greysheet.com/coin-prices/item?entryid=1354
Thank you for the inquiry!
John
As you know, Heritage sold this coin just a bit more than a month ago in May, yet the cert number and cert shows this is a VERY old slab. As such, Rick Snow's Photo Seal in my opinion, was probably applied decades ago, before the copper coin turned. I would make another educated guess that before a coin of this value were auctioned, either the consignor on his/her own, or at the request of Heritage, submitted it to CAC and it failed, due to the current color.
From 2018 through the time this most recent outlier was sold, other prices realized, regardless of TPG, were (older to newer) $9,000, $9,600 (this is the only one with a CAC), $5,760, $3,960, $6,600, and $6,600.
Not that it matters, But GC had two 66RD's sold, both Non CAC - 11/2019 $4,725, and just this past February 2022 for $6,190. This can possibly demonstrate that in this market, these coins are NOT going down in price, despite that sale of the darker 1880 MS66RD that reflected a price based on it's own eye appeal.
I truly don't want to twist your arm, but I'm only addressing your point for the coin you gave as justification for the position.
Steve
As for GreatCollections, it would be great if they fed us their auction data. As it stands, it's very hard for us to include that in our analysis because it's too hard to look up individual coins on their site. Even if we did, our users wouldn't understand why a price had changed without seeing the APR data on the screen.
John
I wanted to share the results from the latest @CoinRaritiesOnline early bird. They had a very nice 1840 $ pcgs AU50 CAC that they sold within the first hour or two . Price guide is 2k and they sold for just about double! This is not an outlier because Within the last year GFRC has also sold (2) other AUs for above price guide. I think the 1840 in Lower AU grades deserve a little love. Thoughts?
I also have a 1925 D $2.50 ms 65 CAC
Grey Sheet on the 1909 is $2,550
On the 1925 D its $3,100
CAC Rare Coin Market Review has them at
$3,190 & $3,880
Yet in Non CAC Grey sheet values reflected are $2,325 & $1,575
The 25 D in 65 non CAC is less money then the 09 in 64 but once CACed the 25D exceeds the 09 .
Any ideas to why or how that works out that way ?
Thanks
I’ve had the privilege to receive and give to members of 7th Group Special Forces, Coast Guard , Seal Team One and members floating on the Nimitz in the Persian Gulf . To name just a few . They can be purchased online at eBay or in person at a Army Navy Surplus Store. Best to have earned it where possible .
Steve
Just curious. Do you know why the market views the CAC stickered 1908 NM $20 Saint as the least valuable of the type trio of 1908NM 1924 and 1928 MS-67 Saints?
JA has been appropriately tough on what he sees as a true MS-67 1908 NM Saint. The pop count of these 1908 NM in MS-67 is about half of the much more pricey 1924 and 1928 MS-67 Saint. I realize the PCGS/NGC pop counts in MS-67 are much higher for the 1908 NM Saints due to the Wells Fargo hoard but shouldn't the low CAC pop for these prevail price-wise?
It is just a matter of pricing inefficiency? I also realize the 1924 and even the 1928 are generally more attractive l issues.